2
00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:17,889
<i>Life for a playwright is hard.</i>

3
00:01:17,960 --> 00:01:20,884
<i>It's not easy, as some believe.</i>

4
00:01:20,960 --> 00:01:24,567
<i>You work hard to write scripts, 
and then no one puts them on stage.</i>

5
00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:27,564
<i>Then try other jobs
and you try to live with them -</i>

6
00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:29,563
<i>I became an actor</i> -

7
00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:31,881
<i>but people don't hire you anyway.</i>

8
00:01:31,960 --> 00:01:35,965
<i>This is how you start spending your days
doing errands that concern your profession.</i>

9
00:01:36,960 --> 00:01:39,327
<i>This morning I got up at 10...</i>

10
00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:41,528
<i>to make some important phone calls.</i>

11
00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:45,810
<i>So I went to the stationery shop to buy some envelopes. 
Then to the copy shop.</i>

12
00:01:45,880 --> 00:01:47,928
<i>There were dozens of things to do.</i>

13
00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:56,285
<i>By 5, I finally reached the post office...</i>

14
00:01:56,360 --> 00:01:58,806
<i>and I sent the script..</i>

15
00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:01,201
<i>and in the meantime I checked 
the answering machine constantly...</i>

16
00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:04,568
<i>because I wanted to know if my agent 
had gotten me some engagement.</i>

17
00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:08,122
<i>But in the morning, the post office box
it's just full of bills.</i>

18
00:02:08,200 --> 00:02:10,885
<i>What should I have done?
How was I going to pay for them?</i>

19
00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:13,964
<i>After all, I had tried to do my best.</i>

20
00:02:15,640 --> 00:02:18,041
<i>I have lived in this city all my life.</i>

21
00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:20,646
<i>I grew up on the Upper East Side...</i>

22
00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:24,645
<i>and when I was 10 years old, 
I was rich, an aristocrat...</i>

23
00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:28,281
<i>I traveled around in a taxi, with all the comforts...</i>

24
00:02:28,360 --> 00:02:31,409
<i>and all I thought about was art and music.</i>

25
00:02:31,480 --> 00:02:36,850
<i>I'm 36 now, and the only thing I think about is money.</i>

26
00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:08,443
<i>It was already 7 pm...</i>

27
00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:12,161
<i>and I would have found nothing better than to go home, 
and find Debby, my girlfriend...</i>

28
00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:15,050
<i>who would cook me a delicious dinner.</i>

29
00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:17,646
<i>But in recent years, our economic circumstances...</i>

30
00:03:17,720 --> 00:03:21,008
<i>they had forced Debby to work three nights a week as a waitress.</i>

31
00:03:21,080 --> 00:03:24,209
<i>After all, someone had to make ends meet.</i>

32
00:03:24,280 --> 00:03:27,045
<i>So, I was left alone.</i>

33
00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:30,920
<i>But worst of all was that for a strange
series of circumstances I was stuck...</i>

34
00:03:31,040 --> 00:03:35,728
<i>and I had agreed to have dinner with a guy 
which I had literally been avoiding for years.</i>

35
00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:37,723
<i>His name was André Gregory.</i>

36
00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:41,009
<i>He had once been a very dear friend of mine...</i>

37
00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:43,924
<i>and one of the most valuable colleagues 
that I had at the theatre.</i>

38
00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:46,321
<i>In fact, he was the first to discover me...</i>

39
00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:49,802
<i>and to stage one of my theater shows.</i>

40
00:03:49,880 --> 00:03:53,646
<i>When I met Andrè, he was at the height of his
his career as a theater director.</i>

41
00:03:53,720 --> 00:03:56,644
<i>The extraordinary work he had done 
with his company, the Manhattan Project...</i>

42
00:03:56,720 --> 00:03:59,929
<i>had amazed audiences all over the world.</i>

43
00:04:01,240 --> 00:04:04,130
<i>But then something happened to Andrè.</i>

44
00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:07,283
<i>He left the theater. In fact, it practically disappeared.</i>

45
00:04:07,360 --> 00:04:10,400
<i>For several months, at that time, his family seemed 
that he only knew that he was travelling...</i>

46
00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:12,920
<i>in absurd places like Tibet...</i>

47
00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:15,810
<i>it all seemed too strange,
since he loved his wife and children very much.</i>

48
00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:18,451
<i>He never seemed like one to me 
that he could abandon his family.</i>

49
00:04:18,560 --> 00:04:22,007
<i>Someone who had met him at a party, 
he had heard him tell it...</i>

50
00:04:22,080 --> 00:04:25,527
<i>about his talking to the trees, 
or something like that.</i>

51
00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:29,002
<i>Obviously, something terrible 
it must have happened to Andrè.</i>

52
00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:32,522


53
00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:38,006
<i>Just meeting him 
it made me particularly nervous.</i>

54
00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:40,287
<i>I mean, I wasn't really in the mood
for an evening of that kind.</i>

55
00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:44,206
<i>I already had my problems, 
How could I have helped Andrè too?</i>

56
00:04:44,280 --> 00:04:46,362
<i>Should I have been his doctor, or what?</i>

57
00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:49,647


58
00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:51,643
- Hello.
- Good evening.

59
00:04:53,120 --> 00:04:55,122
- Here we are.
- Thank you.

60
00:04:59,280 --> 00:05:03,490
- Sir.
- Nothing sir, my name is Wallace Shawn.

61
00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:06,131
I am expected at the table with Andrè Gregory.

62
00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:10,562
The table will be ready in a moment.

63
00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:13,166
If you want, you can have a drink at the bar.

64
00:05:32,080 --> 00:05:35,084
- Good evening.
- Uh, could I have a club soda, thanks?

65
00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:38,084
Excuse me.
We only have Source de Pavilion.

66
00:05:38,160 --> 00:05:40,481
Oh, that'll be fine, thanks.

67
00:05:55,320 --> 00:05:58,688
<i>When I called Andrè and he suggested we come 
in this particular restaurant...</i>

68
00:05:58,760 --> 00:06:03,129
<i>I was quite surprised, because Andrè 
he seemed more "ascetic" than places like that...</i>

69
00:06:03,200 --> 00:06:06,329
<i>despite it having always been known that Andrè 
had a lot of money somewhere.</i>

70
00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:09,961
<i>Otherwise, how the hell would he travel 
to Asia and to have all those experiences...</i>

71
00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:12,884
<i>and in the meantime continue to support his family?</i>

72
00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:18,127
<i>The reason I was going to meet up with Andrè 
it was that an acquaintance of mine, George Grassfield...</i>

73
00:06:18,200 --> 00:06:22,000
<i>he had called me and insisted that I meet him.</i>

74
00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:26,330
<i>Apparently, George was walking his dog 
the night before in an absurd part of the city...</i>

75
00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:28,402
<i>and suddenly he ran into Andrè...</i>

76
00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:31,962
<i>leaning against an old, crumbling building, crying.</i>

77
00:06:32,040 --> 00:06:34,520
<i>André had explained to George
that he had gone to see...</i>

78
00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:37,046
<i>Ingmar Bergman's film "Autumn Symphony"...</i>

79
00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:39,122
<i>about 25 blocks before...</i>

80
00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:42,602
<i>and he had been struck by a crisis 
of unstoppable crying...</i>

81
00:06:42,680 --> 00:06:45,684
<i>when the character played
by Ingrid Bergman had pronounced...</i>

82
00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:50,488
<i>“I could always live in my art,
but never in my life. ”</i>

83
00:06:55,760 --> 00:06:58,331
<i>Wally!</i>

84
00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:01,006
- Wow.
- My God.

85
00:07:04,560 --> 00:07:07,086
<i>I remember when I first started
to work in Andrè's company...</i>

86
00:07:07,160 --> 00:07:11,006
<i>I couldn't get over the fact that the actors were hugging each other, 
even though they were each envious of the other.</i>

87
00:07:11,080 --> 00:07:14,163
<i>"Wow. Now I'm really in the theater,"
I thought.</i>

88
00:07:14,240 --> 00:07:16,402
I find you in great shape.

89
00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:19,324
<i>Actually, I feel like crap.</i>

90
00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:23,482
Good evening, sir.
Nice to see you again.

91
00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:26,882
Thank you, and good evening to you. 
I think I'll have a spritz, if that's possible.

92
00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:28,883
- Certainly, sir.
- Thank you.

93
00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:32,682
<i>I felt particularly nervous.</i>

94
00:07:32,760 --> 00:07:35,161
<i>I wasn't sure I could stand it 
an entire dinner with him.</i>

95
00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:36,890
Excellent

96
00:07:36,960 --> 00:07:38,883
<i>So, we talked about such and such.</i>

97
00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:41,201
<i>He told me a few things 
about Jerzy Grotowski...</i>

98
00:07:41,280 --> 00:07:43,203
<i>the great Polish theater director...</i>

99
00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:46,489
<i> whose friend Andrè was and 
who he even considered a sort of guru.</i>

100
00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:48,961
<i>He too had abandoned the theater.</i>

101
00:07:49,040 --> 00:07:52,123
<i>Grotowski himself was 
a rather unusual character.</i>

102
00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:56,040
<i>Sometimes it was quite fat, other times it was quite fat
he lost a significant amount of weight...</i>

103
00:07:56,160 --> 00:07:58,447
<i>he became thin, 
and he let his beard grow</i>

104
00:07:58,520 --> 00:08:01,410
- Your table is ready if you want to sit down.
- Oh.

105
00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:03,403
- Oh.
- Yes please.

106
00:08:11,080 --> 00:08:14,289
<i>I was starting to realize
that the only way to make the evening bearable...</i>

107
00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:17,204
<i>it would have been to do 
some questions to Andrè.</i>

108
00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:20,090
<i>Asking questions has always relaxed me.</i>

109
00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:22,481
<i>In fact, sometimes I think that
my secret profession...</i>

110
00:08:22,560 --> 00:08:25,689
<i>it could be that of a private investigator,
the detective.</i>

111
00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:28,525
<i>I enjoy discovering people's lives.</i>

112
00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:33,766
<i>Even if they are in a moment of anguish,
I always find it very... interesting.</i>

113
00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:39,126
-Anyway, is he still skinny?
- What?

114
00:08:39,200 --> 00:08:42,886
Grotowski, is he still thin?

115
00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:45,048
Oh. Absolutely.

116
00:08:48,680 --> 00:08:51,809
Oh, waiter?
Uh, I think we can do without it.

117
00:08:51,880 --> 00:08:54,201
- Of course, sir.
- Thank you.

118
00:08:54,280 --> 00:08:56,203
And how about this?

119
00:08:56,280 --> 00:08:59,523
Seven "swimming" shrimp.

120
00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:03,803
- Ready to order?
- Oh, yes, of course.

121
00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:06,724
Uh, the Galuska -
How - How do you prepare it?

122
00:09:06,800 --> 00:09:09,201
<i>André seemed to know the menu in depth.</i>

123
00:09:09,280 --> 00:09:11,726
- ...it's a dumpling with raisins, seared with almonds.
- But I didn't understand anything.

124
00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:13,962
- It must be very good.
- Hmm.

125
00:09:14,040 --> 00:09:16,646
No, then I think I'll take it 
Cailles aux Raisin, the quail.

126
00:09:16,720 --> 00:09:19,166
- Excellent choice.
- Oh, quails! I'll take them too.

127
00:09:19,240 --> 00:09:21,163
- Two.
- Perfect.
- Perfect!

128
00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:23,925
And then, I think we can get started 
with a Terrine de Poissons.

129
00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:26,008
- Yes.
- What is it?

130
00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:29,289
Uh, it's a kind of fish pâté,
very light.

131
00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:32,250
- Does it have thorns?
- No thorns.

132
00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:34,482
<i>Choke proof.</i>

133
00:09:34,560 --> 00:09:39,248
Well, what do we have in the bowl instead? Bramborová Polévka?

134
00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:43,211
Potato soup.
Truly delicious.

135
00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:45,408
<i>Oh, good, great.
I think I'll order it.</i>

136
00:09:45,520 --> 00:09:47,921
- Thank you, very kind.
- Thanks to you.</i>

137
00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:52,803
Good.

138
00:09:53,800 --> 00:09:55,848
When was the last time we met?

139
00:09:55,920 --> 00:09:58,651
<i>We talked for a while about my writing and acting...</i>

140
00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:00,643
<i>and my girlfriend, Debby.</i>

141
00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:04,520
<i>Then, we also talked about his wife Chiquita,
and his two children, Nicolas and Marina.</i>

142
00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:06,887
<i>And I returned to live in New York.</i>

143
00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:10,368
<i>Finally, I managed to get around to asking him 
where the hell had he been for the last few years.</i>

144
00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:12,363
Oh, God. I'm dying to know.

145
00:10:12,440 --> 00:10:14,124
- <i>Really</i>
- Really.

146
00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:17,044
<i>At first, he seemed reluctant to talk about it...</i>

147
00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:20,727
<i>So I kept asking,
and finally, he began to respond.</i>

148
00:10:20,800 --> 00:10:23,485
I went to a seminar on paratheatrical work.

149
00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:27,366
And this must have happened, five years ago...

150
00:10:27,480 --> 00:10:32,008
Grotowski and I were walking on Fifth Avenue and talking.

151
00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:35,562
You should know that he had already invited me 
that summer in Poland to teach.

152
00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:39,201
You know, no, doing a workshop with actors and directors 
about acting and directing, etc.

153
00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:43,604
And I already told him I wasn't going,
because I had nothing to teach.

154
00:10:43,680 --> 00:10:46,126
I had nothing to say about it.
I didn't know anything.

155
00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:48,248
I couldn't have taught anything.

156
00:10:48,320 --> 00:10:50,561
The exercises meant nothing to me anymore.

157
00:10:50,640 --> 00:10:53,007
Acting out scenes from plays seemed ridiculous to me.

158
00:10:53,080 --> 00:10:56,641
I - I didn't know how to do it.
I mean, I couldn't have done it.

159
00:10:56,800 --> 00:11:00,850
So he said to me, “Why don't you tell me anything 
What would you like to do if you were on a retreat with me?

160
00:11:00,920 --> 00:11:04,242
No matter how scandalous it may be.
Maybe I can give it to you."

161
00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:07,608
So I said,
“Okay, if you could give me…

162
00:11:07,680 --> 00:11:10,570
“40 Jewish women who don't speak
neither English nor French -

163
00:11:10,640 --> 00:11:13,883
<i>“and these women have been in the world for a long time
of the theater, but now they want to leave it...</i>

164
00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:15,849
“but they don't know why...

165
00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:19,169
“or young women who love theatre, but don't know 
a way of making theater that they might love.

166
00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:21,601
“What if these women could play the harp or the trumpet…

167
00:11:21,680 --> 00:11:23,682
and if we could work in a forest, I swear I would come.”

168
00:11:23,760 --> 00:11:25,205
[They laugh]

169
00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:27,931
A week later, or two weeks later,
he calls me from Poland.

170
00:11:28,040 --> 00:11:31,362
And he says to me, “Well, 40 Jewish women is a little hard to come by.”

171
00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:35,445
But he also says, “I have 40 women.
All of them fit your description more than well.”

172
00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:37,966
And he continues “I also have some very interesting men...

173
00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:40,042
“but you don't have to work with them too.

174
00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:43,090
“These are all people united by 
fact that they want to do theatre.

175
00:11:43,160 --> 00:11:46,164
“They play neither the harp nor the trumpet, 
but everyone plays a musical instrument.

176
00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:48,368
And none of them speak English.”

177
00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:50,408
And he had found a forest, Wally.

178
00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:54,809
And the only inhabitants of the forest were 
some wild boars and a hermit.

179
00:11:54,880 --> 00:11:56,882
It was just an offer I couldn't refuse.

180
00:11:56,960 --> 00:11:58,883
<i>I had to leave.</i>

181
00:11:58,960 --> 00:12:02,885
<i>So I went to Poland, and there was this 
magnificent group of men and women.</i>

182
00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:05,964
And the forest he had found
it was absolutely magical.

183
00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:07,963
You know, it was a huge forest.

184
00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:09,969
I mean, the trees were so big...

185
00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:14,483
that four or five people joining their arms 
they would not have completely surrounded a tree.

186
00:12:14,560 --> 00:12:18,087
<i>We were camped next to a small castle...</i>

187
00:12:18,160 --> 00:12:22,484
and we ate around this slab
of stone that we used as a table.

188
00:12:22,560 --> 00:12:25,803
The program was usually 
to start at sunset...

189
00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:28,770
and we generally continued 
until 6 or 7 in the morning.

190
00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:31,207
Then, since Poles love to dance and sing...

191
00:12:31,280 --> 00:12:34,602
we sang and danced
until 11 in the morning.

192
00:12:34,680 --> 00:12:39,242
Then we could eat our food, which generally 
it was bread, jam, some cheese and tea.

193
00:12:39,360 --> 00:12:42,728
<i>Then we finally slept, 
from midday until sunset.</i>

194
00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:46,008
Now, technically, it's obvious -

195
00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:48,526
Technically, the situation is very interesting...

196
00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:51,444
because if you find yourself in a forest 
with a group of 40 people...

197
00:12:51,520 --> 00:12:55,206
who doesn't speak your language, 
all your balance and security are blown.

198
00:12:55,280 --> 00:12:57,203
What do you mean exactly?

199
00:12:57,280 --> 00:13:00,045
Well, what we did 
it was just sitting and waiting...

200
00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:03,329
that someone had the urge to do something.

201
00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:06,688
And that something is what is called theatrical improvisation.

202
00:13:06,760 --> 00:13:09,764
I mean, you know, if you were a director 
working on a text by Chekhov...

203
00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:13,083
you should have actors act 
mother, brother, uncle...

204
00:13:13,160 --> 00:13:16,642
all sitting in a room, acting 
a constructed scene that isn't even in the text.

205
00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:18,722
At the moment you tell him...

206
00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:22,043
"Okay. Let's imagine it's a Sunday 
rainy afternoon on the Sorin estate...

207
00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:24,361
and that you are stuck in the painting room.”

208
00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:26,408
Then everyone would improvise...

209
00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:30,883
speaking and behaving as he would
made their character in that circumstance.

210
00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:34,885
Except in this type of improvisation 
- the kind we used to make in Poland -

211
00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:37,844
the theme is being yourself.

212
00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:40,406
So you follow the same type of improvisation...

213
00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:43,927
do whatever your impulse is 
as if I were that character...

214
00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:46,765
but in this case you are the character.

215
00:13:46,840 --> 00:13:50,242
<i>There is no situation 
imaginary behind...</i>

216
00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:53,403
<i>and there is no character
to hide behind.</i>

217
00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:56,410
What you do is ask yourself
the same questions...

218
00:13:56,520 --> 00:14:01,481
which Stanislavsky says the actor should 
constantly do to himself as a character:

219
00:14:01,560 --> 00:14:05,087
Who are they? Why am I here?

220
00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:08,767
Where am I from?
Where am I going?

221
00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:13,164
But instead of applying them to the role, 
you apply them to yourself.

222
00:14:13,240 --> 00:14:15,481
- Hmm.
- Now, to look at it a little differently...

223
00:14:15,560 --> 00:14:17,608
in a way, it's like 
go back to childhood...

224
00:14:17,680 --> 00:14:20,650
when a group of children  
who enters a room or is brought into a room -

225
00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:23,007
without toys - and start playing.

226
00:14:23,080 --> 00:14:26,801
Once they become adults they learn to play again.

227
00:14:26,880 --> 00:14:30,680
And so, all sitting together somewhere...

228
00:14:30,760 --> 00:14:33,445
you were playing.

229
00:14:33,560 --> 00:14:36,643
- But, what did you actually do?
- Well, I could give you a great example.

230
00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:40,122
You see, we worked together 
for a week in the city...

231
00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:42,248
before we can retreat to our forest.

232
00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:44,681
And of course,
Grotowski was also with us in the city.

233
00:14:44,760 --> 00:14:47,525
I came to know that every night 
he ran something called the Hive.

234
00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:49,523
I loved the sound of this Hive...

235
00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:52,649
so, a night or two before we left
from the city to the countryside...

236
00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:55,803
I grabbed him by the collar, and told him
“Listen, about this hive.

237
00:14:55,880 --> 00:14:57,928
“You know, one time, I would like to participate...

238
00:14:58,040 --> 00:15:00,805
Already instinctively, I feel that it could 
be something very interesting.”

239
00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:03,924
And he said, “Sure, okay.
But sorry, because you and your group...

240
00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:06,606
do not manage a hive yourself
instead of having to take part in it?”

241
00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:10,611
Then I became very nervous,
you know, and I said, “Well, what's a beehive?”

242
00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:13,371
He said, “Well, a beehive is…

243
00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:16,330
a hundred foreigners meeting 
in a room at 8.”

244
00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:19,800
I said “OK, so what?” He told me,
“Yes, and whatever happens is the Hive.”

245
00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:23,089
And then I said, “Yes, but what should I actually do?” 
He replied, “That's for you to decide.”

246
00:15:23,160 --> 00:15:26,926
So I told him, “No, no. I don't want to do this.
I'll participate, and that's it."

247
00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:30,721
And he replied,
"No, no. You run a hive."

248
00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:32,848
Well, I was terrified at that moment, Wally.

249
00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:36,288
In a way, I felt like I was on stage.

250
00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:39,681
<i>So, I did it.</i>

251
00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:42,161
Oh my God. Well, tell me about it.

252
00:15:42,280 --> 00:15:46,330
<i>So, there was this song.
- I have a tape that it's recorded on. I can play it for you one day.</i>

253
00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:49,609
And it is of an almost unbearable beauty.

254
00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:54,482
You see, one of these women in the group knew 
few fragments of this song of Saint Francis...

255
00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:57,723
and it's a song where 
thank God for your eyes...

256
00:15:57,800 --> 00:16:01,009
thank God for your heart,
and you thank him for your friends...

257
00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:03,048
and you thank God for your life.

258
00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:06,124
Oh, and it repeats itself over and over again.

259
00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:08,168
And this became our main theme.

260
00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:10,288
I really have to let you listen to it one of these days...

261
00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:14,763
because you wouldn't really believe that 
a group of people who can't sing...

262
00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:18,561
can create something so poignant.

263
00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:23,282
So, I decided that people 
who would come for the hive...

264
00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:26,170
they would have already found our group there, 
ready to sing this wonderful song...

265
00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:30,086
and that we would sing it over and over and over again.

266
00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:35,007
One of these people decided to take himself 
his huge teddy bear...

267
00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:37,082
She was a little scared by this event.

268
00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:39,401
And someone wanted to bring their own sheets.

269
00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:42,245
And someone else a big jug of water...

270
00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:44,561
in case people were hot or thirsty.

271
00:16:44,640 --> 00:16:46,927
And still someone else suggested
to bring candles -

272
00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:51,130
why we shouldn't have used artificial light,
but candlelight.

273
00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:53,771
I remember looking at people,
prepare for this event.

274
00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:56,081
Obviously no one wore makeup 
or was wearing a costume...

275
00:16:56,200 --> 00:16:58,771
but it was exactly the way 
the actors prepare for the performance.

276
00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:02,049
The people who arrived left 
the jewels and watches...

277
00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:05,283
he put them away making sure 
that everything was safe.

278
00:17:05,360 --> 00:17:08,284
And then the people slowly arrived,
you should have seen the way they came to the theater -

279
00:17:08,360 --> 00:17:11,091
first alone, then in two, 
then in groups of 10 or 15, try to understand.

280
00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:14,249
And we were all sitting there,
to sing this beautiful song.

281
00:17:14,320 --> 00:17:17,688
Other people began to sit with us
and learn the song.

282
00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:22,926
<i>Now, of course there is,
in every form of performance and improvisation...</i>

283
00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:25,480
an instinct for when things get boring.

284
00:17:25,560 --> 00:17:29,485
So, once, 
- an hour, an hour and a half could have passed -

285
00:17:29,560 --> 00:17:33,610
Suddenly I grabbed the bear 
stuffed animal and threw it in the air...

286
00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:37,241
as many as 130 or 140 people 
in unison they exploded.

287
00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:40,324
You know, it was like a Jackson Pollock painting.

288
00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:44,803
Humans exploded outside this strait 
and rigid circle that was singing the song.

289
00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:47,929
And before I knew it, 
two clubs had already been formed

290
00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:51,322
one danced clockwise,
and the other counterclockwise...

291
00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:53,562
at this rate, mostly from the waist down.

292
00:17:53,680 --> 00:17:58,049
In other words, like an American Indian dance,
with this pounding and constant rhythm.

293
00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:05,889
Now as you might imagine, 
we're talking about a group in a trance...

294
00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:10,483
where the line that divides a gathering like this 
and Hitler's rallies in Nuremberg...

295
00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:12,767
it's a very fine line in a way.

296
00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:19,090
Anyway, after an hour
of this hypnotic and wild dance...

297
00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:22,449
Grotowski and I found ourselves sitting opposite each other
each in the middle of the whole thing.

298
00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:24,966
And we pulled the teddy bear 
back and forth.

299
00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:27,606
I know, on a first level, 
you will tell me that all this is childish.

300
00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:29,967
And I suddenly brought the teddy bear to my chest 
and I made him suck it.

301
00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:33,203
So I threw the teddy bear at him,
and he also made it suck on his chest.

302
00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:35,681
And then again, the bear was thrown 
in the air again...

303
00:18:35,800 --> 00:18:39,088
then there was another explosion 
which however turned into something else.

304
00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:42,004
And this - What was it like?
Try to understand, this was -

305
00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:45,641
It had formed like a kaleidoscope,
a sort of human kaleiodscope.

306
00:18:45,720 --> 00:18:50,009
The evening was set 
by the movements of the kaleidoscope.

307
00:18:50,080 --> 00:18:52,082
Now, the only other things I remember...

308
00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:54,083
except of course the constant trying
to order this improvisation...

309
00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:58,722
which was constantly fed 
with every other movement, rhythm, repetition and song -

310
00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:00,928
or chant, because,
two people from my group...

311
00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:03,120
they had brought musical instruments,
a flute and a drum...

312
00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:05,128
which obviously are sacred instruments -

313
00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:07,726
it was that sometimes the room fragmented...

314
00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:11,122
in six or seven groups that went 
forward in unison.

315
00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:14,124
You know, six or seven groups doing improvisation...

316
00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:18,046
and each of which seems in some
way connected to the other.

317
00:19:18,120 --> 00:19:21,488
It was like - it was like a beautiful spider web.

318
00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:27,004
At a certain point, I noticed that Grotowski
he was in the center of a group...

319
00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:29,924
huddled around a group of candles
that they had gathered together.

320
00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:33,129
And like a small child fascinated by fire...

321
00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:37,364
I saw that he held his right hand over the flame 
and kept it there.

322
00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:40,330
And as I approached his group,
I wondered if I could do it too.

323
00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:45,281
I placed my left hand on the flame and found that
I could keep her there for as long as I wanted...

324
00:19:45,360 --> 00:19:47,761
I didn't get burned or feel any pain.

325
00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:52,004
But when I tried to put my right hand on the flame,
I couldn't hold her there for even a second.

326
00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:57,007
So Grotowski told me, “If you get burned, 
try to change something inside yourself.”

327
00:19:57,080 --> 00:20:00,562
I tried to do it.
It didn't work.

328
00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:05,202
Then I remember a procession
very, very beautiful with a sheet...

329
00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:07,806
and someone being transported
under the sheet.

330
00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:10,963
You know, the sheet was like
a great biblical canopy.

331
00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:15,204
And the whole group wove and sang 
around the room.

332
00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:19,365
and at a certain point,
people were dancing...

333
00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:21,761
and I was dancing with a girl...

334
00:20:21,840 --> 00:20:24,411
suddenly our hands started to vibrate
next to each other -

335
00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:26,403
like this - they vibrated, they vibrated.

336
00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:29,927
So we knelt down at the same time 
I cried in his arms...

337
00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:34,329
and somehow she cradled me in her arms
and she started crying too.

338
00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:36,801
So we hugged each other,
but only for a moment.

339
00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:40,208
Only then did we join the dance.

340
00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:43,807
And, at a certain point,
many hours later...

341
00:20:43,880 --> 00:20:46,850
we went back to singing the song of San Francesco...

342
00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:49,287
and that was the end of the hive.

343
00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:54,844
In the end, truly, when it was all over,
it was just like in the theater at the end of the performance.

344
00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:58,129
People put on their earrings and wristwatches...

345
00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:00,168
and we went to the station ...

346
00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:04,370
to drink some beer 
and enjoy a good dinner.

347
00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:07,250
Oh, and there was a girl who
he wasn't in our group...

348
00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:10,767
but he really didn't want to leave,
so we took her with us.

349
00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:14,608
Huh.

350
00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:23,241
God, tell me other things you did with the group.

351
00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:27,041
<i>Well, oh, I remember once 
that we were in the city...</i>

352
00:21:27,120 --> 00:21:30,602
we tried to improvise
but the kind I used to do in New York.

353
00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:33,081
Everyone had to imagine they were on an airplane...

354
00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:35,970
and everyone had just heard from the pilot
that there was something wrong with the engine.

355
00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:39,010
But what was really peculiar
of that improvisation...

356
00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:42,766
was that two people who participated
they fell in love with each other.

357
00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:44,763
In fact, they imagined they were married.

358
00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:47,571
and when we were, let's say,
without fear..

359
00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:50,883
that we were no longer on that plane,
they remained in love with each other...

360
00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:53,088
always thinking that they would die
from one moment to the next.

361
00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:56,801
And when we went to the forest, the two disappeared...

362
00:21:56,880 --> 00:21:59,360
because they understood that -
the experiment had gone so well -...

363
00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:03,206
who had realized that moving forward together
in the forest it was much more important...

364
00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:06,762
of any form of experiment
that the group would experience.

365
00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:10,128
So after about a week...

366
00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:12,407
we came across a clearing in the forest...

367
00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:15,927
and we found the two asleep, each in each other's arms.

368
00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:18,765
It was almost dawn
and we place flowers on their bodies...

369
00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:21,969
to let him know we had been there,
but that we had also immediately moved away.

370
00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:25,362
And so, on the last day of our stay in the forest, 
the two reappeared...

371
00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:28,330
they shook my hands,
and they thanked me very much...

372
00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:31,131
for the magnificent work,
that they were able to accomplish.

373
00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:34,283
They understood what it was about.

374
00:22:34,360 --> 00:22:37,807
Because obviously in these cases, the question arises
of why this improvisation is needed.

375
00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:42,607
<i>It has to do with living.</i>

376
00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:48,085
And on the final day of our stay in the woods...

377
00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:50,731
the whole group did something truly extraordinary, Wally.

378
00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:53,041
They organized a baptism, a baptism for me.

379
00:22:53,120 --> 00:22:55,441
They filled the castle with flowers.

380
00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:57,961
And it was truly a miracle of light...

381
00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:01,931
because we had literally sorted it out 
a hundred torches and candles.

382
00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:04,844
I mean, no church would have looked more beautiful than that.

383
00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:08,049
There was a small ceremony, and one of them played the role of godmother...

384
00:23:08,120 --> 00:23:10,122
and another the role of godfather.

385
00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:13,881
And I was given a new name.
They called me Yendrush.

386
00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:17,407
Some people took it
very seriously...

387
00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:19,642
others found it funny.

388
00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:23,008
But I really felt
to have a new name.

389
00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:28,006
And there was a huge banquet,
with blueberries picked in the field...

390
00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:30,731
and chocolate, someone had traveled a long way to buy it...

391
00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:32,848
and raspberry juice and rabbit stew.

392
00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:35,969
And we sang Polish and Greek songs...

393
00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:38,964
and we all danced the rest of the night.

394
00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:41,168
- Hmm.
- Oh, I have a photo of the event.

395
00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:46,764
See, this was - let's see.

396
00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:50,684
Oh, sure.
This was me in the forest. You see?

397
00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:53,445
- God!
- That's how I felt.

398
00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:58,767
- Here's the state I was in.
- God.

399
00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:03,651
Yes. I remember George telling me
that I met you in that period.

400
00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:06,041
He told me that you looked like a war veteran.

401
00:24:06,120 --> 00:24:09,522
Yes, I remember meeting him. He -
he asked me many interesting questions.

402
00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:11,887
I think I called you too that summer, didn't I?

403
00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:13,883
Huh.

404
00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:16,964
Maybe I was out of town.

405
00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:20,726
<i>Yes, well many of the people I met 
they thought there was something wrong with me</i>

406
00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:24,088
Of course they didn't say it to my face, 
but I could have told you everything they thought.

407
00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:26,288
But...

408
00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:31,088
You see, what I think I experienced... was...

409
00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:33,925
for the first time in my life...

410
00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:36,526
to know what it means to be truly alive.

411
00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:38,568
Now, what's really scary...

412
00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:41,166
is that along with this sensation 
you get an immediate awareness of death...

413
00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:43,163
because the two go hand in hand.

414
00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:46,687
You know, that's the kind of impulse that pervades Walt Whitman
and everything Leaves of grass in general.

415
00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:49,240
That feeling of being connected to everything...

416
00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:51,641
it also means being connected to death.

417
00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:53,922
And it's very scary.

418
00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:58,528
But I really felt like I was levitating an inch off the ground,
not simply walking.

419
00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:01,246
Oh, and if I could, I would have gone on the interstate...

420
00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:05,245
watching the traffic lights 
go from red to green and say 'Wonderful'.”

421
00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:08,642
And then, one day in early autumn...

422
00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:11,200
I was out of town, and I was walking in a field...

423
00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:14,767
suddenly I heard a voice calling me: "Little prince".

424
00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:17,650
Obviously "The Little Prince" was a book 
which I had always thought...

425
00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:19,643
corny, childish, disgusting.

426
00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:23,008
But I thought “If a voice comes to talk to me in a field” -

427
00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:25,401
This was the first voice I had ever heard.

428
00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:27,448
Maybe I should go read that book.

429
00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:29,887
Now the same morning,
I received a letter...

430
00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:32,281
by a young woman
who had been in my group in Poland.

431
00:25:32,360 --> 00:25:34,601
And in the letter he had written,
“You dominated me.”

432
00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:36,722
He spoke very strange English.

433
00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:39,804
It probably went into the dictionary 
and had deleted the term "dominated"...

434
00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:42,804
so he had rewritten
"No. The correct word is 'tamed'."

435
00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:46,089
So when I went to town, 
I took the book and started reading it...

436
00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:50,210
I saw that the term "tame" was that 
most important throughout the book.

437
00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:54,171
At the end of reading, I was in tears,
deeply moved by the story.

438
00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:56,886
<i>I then wanted to write 
a response to that letter...</i>

439
00:25:56,960 --> 00:25:58,962
because he had written me a very long letter.

440
00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:02,487
But I just couldn't find the right words,
so I took my hand...

441
00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:05,404
I put it on top of the paper,
I went over the outlines with the pen...

442
00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:08,324
and in the center I wrote something like
“Your heart is in my hand.”

443
00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:10,050
Something like that.

444
00:26:10,120 --> 00:26:12,168
Afterwards I went to my brother's house to swim...

445
00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:14,641
Because he lives in the countryside and has a swimming pool.

446
00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:16,762
But he wasn't at home.
So I went to the library...

447
00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:19,889
and had bought at an auction
a collection of Minotaur publications.

448
00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:24,403
The surrealist magazine, remember? Oh it's a great one, 
great surrealist magazine of the 20s and 30s.

449
00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:27,569
I've always considered myself something of a surrealist.

450
00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:30,211
but I had never seen a copy of the Minotaur before.

451
00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:32,601
And they were all there, stacked up, year after year.

452
00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:36,048
So, randomly,
I chose one, and started leafing through it...

453
00:26:36,120 --> 00:26:39,488
and there was a full-page reproduction of the letter "A"

454
00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:41,642
<i>made by Tenniel, contained in Alice in Wonderland.</i>

455
00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:45,042
And I thought it had been a day
full of coincidences...

456
00:26:45,120 --> 00:26:47,851
but the most unusual fact was that 
had the surrealists been interested in Alice...

457
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:49,962
and I had made a comedy about Alice.</i>

458
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:54,284
So, again randomly,
I opened another page...

459
00:26:54,360 --> 00:26:57,887
and there were four fingerprints.

460
00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:00,884
One was by André Breton,
another by André Derain...

461
00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:03,531
the third was André -
I must have written it down somewhere.

462
00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:07,565
It's not Malraux. It must be -let's see-
oh well, another surrealist.

463
00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:12,521
They all started with A, and the fourth was Antoine de Saint-Exupéry...

464
00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:14,648
<i>who wrote The Little Prince.</i>

465
00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:17,200
They had shown the prints to experts...

466
00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:20,130
without specifying who they belonged to.

467
00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:24,040
And under that of Saint-Exupéry,
it said it was by an artist...

468
00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:26,447
who had very powerful eyes...

469
00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:30,366
who was a "tamer" of wild animals.

470
00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:32,647
I thought,
“This is incredible.”

471
00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:36,486
So I looked at the cover 
to see the year of publication.

472
00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:40,406
It came out on newsstands
on May 12, 1934...

473
00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:44,769
and I was born on the day
of 11 May 1934.

474
00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:51,006
Well all this led me to
Saint-Exupéry and the <i>Little</i> Prince.

475
00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:01,126
Now, now -

476
00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:04,687
I think there is a very fascist component 
in the subtext of The Little Prince.

477
00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:07,001
You know, Me
Well, no, I think there's some sort-

478
00:28:07,120 --> 00:28:12,524
I think there is a sort of totalitarian sentimentalism 
of the SS type, sown somewhere in the story.

479
00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:15,365
There's something, how can I put it,

480
00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:17,602
a kind of love-

481
00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:22,129
That masculine love
but a little slimy.

482
00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:25,443
Do you understand what I mean?
That is, it's disgusting just to touch it.

483
00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:29,161
But I can imagine
a beautiful SS soldier...

484
00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:31,242
who loves the Little Prince

485
00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:33,971
Now, I don't know why, but there's something 
wrong with all of this. it's repugnant. 

486
00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:44,283
Sorry, but George didn't tell me you were 
preparing a show based on The Little Prince?

487
00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:47,569
Hmm. Well, what happened, Wally...

488
00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:50,246
it's just that the autumn I was in New York...

489
00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:53,767
I met this young Japanese Buddhist priest
who was called Kozan...

490
00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:56,366
which I thought was a perfect Puck
for A Midsummer Night's Dream.

491
00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:58,681
He had a beautiful, delicate smile.

492
00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:00,728
then I thought <i>that</i> was my Little Prince.

493
00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:04,242
Of course I decided
to retreat to the Sahara desert...

494
00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:07,847
to work on the <i>Little Prince</i>
with two actors and the Japanese monk.

495
00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:09,843
And did you do it?

496
00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:14,881
Well, look, I was still in a period 
very special, Wally.

497
00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:18,362
You know, I could have looked in the mirror 
rearview of my car...

498
00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:21,284
and see little birds fly out of my mouth.

499
00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:26,609
And I remember that during that time I was always tired.

500
00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:30,765
I always felt weak. You know, really 
I didn't know what was wrong with me.

501
00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:34,765
I sat alone in the countryside for days on end...

502
00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:38,049
and I didn't do anything except write in my diary.

503
00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:40,964
- And the only thing I thought about was death.
<i>- Huh.</i>

504
00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:43,042
<i>But you went to the Sahara.</i>

505
00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:45,202
<i>Oh, yes, we went into the desert for a few days...</i>

506
00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:47,408
and we traveled through the desert on camels.

507
00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:49,403
And we traveled, and we traveled.

508
00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:51,926
And then one night we went out walking
under a huge sky...

509
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:54,082
and we looked at the stars.

510
00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:57,721
But I thought the same things
I was always thinking about at home -

511
00:29:57,800 --> 00:29:59,882
in particular, I was thinking of Chiquita.

512
00:29:59,960 --> 00:30:03,362
In fact, I didn't think about anything else 
that it wasn't my wedding.

513
00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:07,641
And then I remember that in one night
terribly dark...

514
00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:10,963
we were in an oasis, and there were palm trees 
waving in the wind...

515
00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:14,761
and I could hear Kozan singing
far away, in his splendid deep voice.

516
00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:17,571
Then, I tried to follow his voice along the sand.

517
00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:19,563


518
00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:22,644
You know, I thought he had something to teach me, Wally.

519
00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:26,242
Sometimes, I meditated with him.

520
00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:29,324
Other times, I retreated and meditated alone.

521
00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:33,604
When I did this, Chiquita always appeared.

522
00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:35,921
Once, he appeared to me as he was growing old...

523
00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:38,651
and his hair was dyed grey
before my eyes.

524
00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:43,726
And at that moment I wanted to cry 
and scream at the top of your lungs out there in the dunes.

525
00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:50,685
However,
the desert was quite distressing.

526
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:52,683
It was cold.

527
00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:56,242
We were looking for something, but I couldn't have told you 
if we had found anything.

528
00:30:56,320 --> 00:30:58,368
You know that once me and Kozan

529
00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:00,966
we were sitting on a dune,
and literally, we ate sand.

530
00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:03,480
No, we weren't trying to be funny.
I started, and so did he.

531
00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:07,320
We ate the sand and threw it back.
That's how desperate we were.

532
00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:11,126
In other words, we didn't know why we were there.
We didn't know what we were looking for.

533
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:14,283
The whole thing seemed to us 
completely absurd, dry and empty.

534
00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:17,842
It was like a last chance,
or something like that.

535
00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:20,287
<i>Huh.</i>

536
00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:22,647
What happened next?

537
00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:25,530
<i>Well, in those days...</i>

538
00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:27,887
I was overwhelmed by impulses.

539
00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:31,123
So, on impulse, I brought Kozan back to New York 
and I welcomed him into our home...

540
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:34,767
after we returned from the Sahara,
and remained there for six months.

541
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:38,805
<i>- And he became kind of a catalyst for the whole family.
- What do you mean?</i>

542
00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:43,169
<i>Well, at that time, at the heart of the house
a center had been lost.</i>

543
00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:45,760
Surely a father was missing,
because I was always thinking...

544
00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:49,287
to escape to Tibet,
or do God knows what.

545
00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:51,727
So, he taught the whole family
meditation...

546
00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:56,010
and he told him about Asia, the East, his monastery and all the rest

547
00:31:56,080 --> 00:32:00,608
He truly fascinated everyone
with a series of tricks.

548
00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:03,490
He had literally developed himself, Wally...

549
00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:08,327
that he could push on his fingers 
and stand on the chair.

550
00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:10,368
I mean, he could easily do that -

551
00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:12,681
You know, pushing on the fingers 
and literally turn upside down...

552
00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:14,888
and do a two-finger handstand.

553
00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:17,327
Or, if Chiquita, had some tension 
accumulated around the neck...

554
00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:20,683
He immediately made her lie on the floor 
and started walking up and down on his back...

555
00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:23,809
giving her these incredible massages.

556
00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:26,962
And the kids thought it was incredible.

557
00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:30,283
Maybe we were going to visit friends with children...

558
00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:32,480
and immediately, he was playing with these children...

559
00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:34,522
in a way that we simply cannot.

560
00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:37,371
I mean, those kids-
they laughed, laughed, laughed...

561
00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:40,887
for whatever the monk did
in his sacred clothes.

562
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:43,930
He was an acrobat,
a ventriloquist...

563
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:46,571
a wizard, that was all.

564
00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:48,608
An incredible fact
it was that...

565
00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:51,047
I don't think he had any interest
in children in general.

566
00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:53,407
Not at all.
I don't even think they liked them.

567
00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:55,562
I mean, when he was with us...

568
00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:58,405
in the first week, the boys 
they had eyes only for him.

569
00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:01,404
But a couple of weeks later,
Chiquita and I were supposed to be out...

570
00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:04,450
and Marina could have had the flu or a fever of 40...

571
00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:07,126
but he didn't bother to visit her 
or say "Hi" to her.

572
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:10,682
Because it was transforming, little by little.

573
00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:13,406
His habits
had completely changed.

574
00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:18,247
He started wearing these elegant Gucci shoes
under his monk's robe.

575
00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:20,368
He ate large quantities of food.

576
00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:23,922
He ate double what Nicolas ate, you know?

577
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:26,571
This little, tiny Buddhist
that the first time I met him...

578
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:29,610
he was eating a small bowl of milk -
hot milk with rice

579
00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:32,331
now he ate a whole cow.

580
00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:36,931
It was all too strange.

581
00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:40,567
You know, we were trying to work together
but our work mostly consisted...

582
00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:45,441
of my attempt to make these rigid 
spiritual exercises they did in the monasteries.

583
00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:48,603
So, we didn't do much.

584
00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:54,050
Anyway, we were out of town, in the countryside,
and we decided to all go to Christmas Mass together.

585
00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:56,361
He was fully dressed
with his monk's vestments.

586
00:33:56,480 --> 00:34:00,451
And we were in one of those dark, gloomy Catholic churches on Long Island...

587
00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:04,570
where priests talk about communism and birth control.

588
00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:08,611
And I was sitting in the middle of this mass and I was wondering, 
“What in the world is going on?”

589
00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:10,648
I mean, here I am, a grown man...

590
00:34:10,720 --> 00:34:13,371
and there's this strange guy living in my house-
and I'm not even working.

591
00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:16,967
I don't do anything all day,
except scribbling a few poems in my diary.

592
00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:21,523
I'm not teaching anymore,
and I don't know what I want to do.

593
00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:27,164
When a huge creature appears, 
and fixes the congregation.

594
00:34:27,240 --> 00:34:31,643
It was about six or seven meters tall,
something like that...

595
00:34:31,720 --> 00:34:34,690
and it was -
he was half man, half bull...

596
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:36,928
and his skin was blue.

597
00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:40,686
He had violets coming out of his eyelids,
and poppies growing on my toenails.

598
00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:44,481
<i>And he was standing there
for the entire mass.</i>

599
00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:47,001
I couldn't make the creature disappear.

600
00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:50,084
Of course I thought, “Sure, 
I'm seeing the creature because I'm bored.”

601
00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:55,371
But if I closed my eyes -
I couldn't send the creature away.

602
00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:59,365
Okay. At that time, I didn't talk about it with people, 
because they would think I was crazy...

603
00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:04,924
but I perceived that this creature 
somehow he was there to comfort me...

604
00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:08,328
that somehow
had appeared to me to tell me...

605
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:13,008
“Well, you may feel down and incompetent 
to write a script right now...

606
00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:17,051
“but look what comes to you on Christmas Eve.
Hold on, old boy."

607
00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:20,010
“It may seem strange to you,
but on these strange journeys...

608
00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:22,048
“Strange creatures appear.

609
00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:26,045
It's part of the journey.
You're ok. Hold on.”

610
00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:33,727
However, have you ever seen...

611
00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:37,486
<i>that show, "Are Violets Blue"?</i>

612
00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:41,243
No.

613
00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:44,529
Oh, when you spoke of violets,
it reminded me a lot of that show.

614
00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:47,570
It was about a group of people...

615
00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:50,723
who are strangled on a submarine.

616
00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:53,087
Hmm.

617
00:35:57,040 --> 00:36:02,001
Well, that was it,
that was Christmas.

618
00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:04,765
What happened next?

619
00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:07,810
- Do you really want to hear the whole story?
- Yes.

620
00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:11,566
Well, at that time...

621
00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:18,480
I was starting to think about leaving for India.
And Kozan suddenly, one day left.

622
00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:21,928
I was also starting to have strange ideas around that time.

623
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:26,130
For example, I had developed this -
Well, I had this idea that I -

624
00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:29,363
That is. it was really teasing me at that precise moment -

625
00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:32,762
that I had a flag,
a very large flag...

626
00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:35,207
and that wherever I worked,
the flag would fly.

627
00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:39,609
Or if we were out, I say, with a group,
the flag could have been the bed to lie on in the night...

628
00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:43,446
and that somehow, working on the flag 
and staying on the flag...

629
00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:45,443
this flag waving above us...

630
00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:49,491
that the flag would have gathered upon itself
vibrations of all sorts...

631
00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:52,331
that would remain on the flag
when I would bring her home.

632
00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:55,563
So I met this flag weaver
that I had heard about.

633
00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:57,688
You know, there was this seemingly very honest man.

634
00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:02,561
You know, very clear, really very beautiful and everything. 
Cute, tall, blond.

635
00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:05,644
And he had a beautiful, big, clean loft down in the village
with some lovely and cheerful flags.

636
00:37:05,720 --> 00:37:09,202
And I was all taken up with the Little Prince, and the
I was talking about the Little Prince...

637
00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:13,171
the adventures and all, how the flag was needed
and what it should have looked like.

638
00:37:13,240 --> 00:37:15,561
He really seemed to understand the meaning.

639
00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:18,166
Two weeks later, I returned to him.

640
00:37:18,240 --> 00:37:21,961
He showed me a flag
which I thought was very strange, you know...

641
00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:24,042
because I expected, you know -
well, you know...

642
00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:27,488
I was expecting something simple and poetic.

643
00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:29,961
But there was something so powerful there...

644
00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:32,008
which was almost unbearable.

645
00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:34,082
And it included a Tibetan swastika.

646
00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:37,841
Did you put a swastika on your flag?

647
00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:40,651
No, it was the Tibetan swastika,
not the Nazi one.

648
00:37:40,720 --> 00:37:43,087
One of the oldest Tibetan symbols.

649
00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:46,209
And it was very strange, you know?

650
00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:49,887
But I took her home anyway,
because my idea about this flag...

651
00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:52,440
was that, before I left for India -
you know, before I left for India...

652
00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:56,360
I wanted some people who were very close to me
had this flag in the room for the night...

653
00:37:56,480 --> 00:37:59,927
and sleep together, you know, and then in the morning 
leave something inside the flag.

654
00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:04,090
So I showed the flag to Marina and told her,
"Hey, look at this. What do you think?"

655
00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:06,925
And she said, "What is it? I find it terrible."
I told her "A flag."

656
00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:08,684
And she said, “I don't like it.”

657
00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:12,003
I told her, “I thought you might
spend the night with this one.”

658
00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:15,050
But she just thought it was terrible.

659
00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:19,489
So Chiquita threw a party 
before my departure for India...

660
00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:21,642
and the apartment was full of guests.

661
00:38:21,720 --> 00:38:24,803
At one point Chiquita said,
"The flag, the flag. Where is the flag?"

662
00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:28,885
And I said, "Oh, sure. The flag." And me
I go, take the flag and unroll it.

663
00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:32,851
Chiquita whitens,
runs out of the room and vomits.

664
00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:36,242
So the party is suspended
and everyone leaves.

665
00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:39,051
The next day
I gave it to this young woman...

666
00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:41,726
who had been in my group in Poland,
and who was then in New York

667
00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:45,322
I didn't tell her about any of this.

668
00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:47,846
At 5 in the morning,
he called me and told me...

669
00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:50,400
“I must come now and see you immediately.”
I thought, “Oh God.”

670
00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:54,246
He rushed up and said to me, "I saw some things -
I saw some things around the flag.

671
00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:57,324
“Now I know that you are stubborn, 
and I know you want to take this thing with you...

672
00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:00,449
“but if you want to follow my advice,
you should put it in a ditch...

673
00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:03,410
burn it and cover everything with earth,
because the Devil is in there.”

674
00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:05,403
I never took the flag with me.

675
00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:09,929
In fact I gave it to her, and her
with this he gave a ceremony...

676
00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:12,480
six months later, in France,
with some friends...

677
00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:14,767
in which, well, they burned it.

678
00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:18,128
God.

679
00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:21,602
Really, really crazy.

680
00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:25,851
And then you went to India?

681
00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:29,288
Oh yes, I went to India that spring, Wally...

682
00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:31,840
and I went home 
feeling that everything was wrong.

683
00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:36,369
I mean, I had been to India,
but I had been nothing more than a tourist.

684
00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:39,284
I hadn't found anything.

685
00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:44,048
So, I was spending the summer
with my family on Long Island

686
00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:47,124
and I learned about this community 
in Scotland called Findhorn...

687
00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:50,761
where people sang, talked 
and they meditated with the plants.

688
00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:56,410
And it had been founded by some 
eccentric bourgeois, English and Scottish.

689
00:39:56,480 --> 00:39:58,801
Some of them were intellectuals,
others don't.

690
00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:01,326
He had heard what they had done 
grow in soil...

691
00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:04,609
in which apparently nothing could grow,
because it was mostly sandy soil...

692
00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:08,890
and they had built - sorry, not built - 
they had grown the largest cauliflowers in the world...

693
00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:10,928
and so there was some kind of cabbage.

694
00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:14,846
And they had grown trees
which do not grow on the British Isles.

695
00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:17,685
So I went there too.
It's a great place, Wally.

696
00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:21,924
If there are insects that 
they bother the plants...

697
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:25,527
they talk to insects
and they make a deal...

698
00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:29,730
in which the plants put aside a little piece of themselves
only for insects...

699
00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:31,928
and so the insects leave alone 
the main part of the plant.

700
00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:34,002
- Huh.
- Things like that.

701
00:40:34,080 --> 00:40:36,606
And everything they do, they do beautifully.

702
00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:39,490
Their buildings shine.

703
00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:43,531
That is, for example, the freezer,
the oven, the car - they all have proper names.

704
00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:45,887
And since you wouldn't treat Helen,
the freezer...

705
00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:48,281
with less respect 
than how you would treat Margaret, your wife...

706
00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:52,291
then you must be sure that Helen is as clean as Margaret, 
or at least treat her with the same respect.

707
00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:59,128
And when I was there, Wally,
I remember being in the woods...

708
00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:03,888
and I looked at a leaf,
and I saw that thing...

709
00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:07,169
that is alive in that leaf.

710
00:41:07,240 --> 00:41:10,289
And then I remember running
into the forest as fast as I could...

711
00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:12,840
with this incredible laugh 
that I couldn't hold back...

712
00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:18,131
and it was that state where laughter 
and the tears blend together.

713
00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:20,202
I mean, it literally blew my mind.

714
00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:23,363
When I returned from Findhorn,
I had constant hallucinations.

715
00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:26,091
The clouds looked like creatures to me.

716
00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:28,766
Passengers on the plane 
they had animal faces.

717
00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:32,930
Everything was a trip. I was there 
in the middle of William Blake's world.

718
00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:34,968
Things were exploding.

719
00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:39,364
Immediately, I left for Belgrade.
I had to talk about it with Grotowski.

720
00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:42,728
Grotowski and I met
at midnight in my hotel room...

721
00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:46,247
and drank instant coffee 
from the cap of my shaving cream...

722
00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:50,450
and we talked from midnight
until 11 the following morning.

723
00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:52,966
- And what did he tell you?
- Nothing!

724
00:41:53,040 --> 00:41:55,088
I was talking. He didn't say a word.

725
00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:59,808
And - And then I think that...

726
00:41:59,880 --> 00:42:03,930
the last great experience of this type
it happened that autumn.

727
00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:06,008
I was in Montauk, Long Island...

728
00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:09,687
and there were only nine people, mostly males.

729
00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:12,809
And we had borrowed 
Dick Avedon's house, just outside Montauk.

730
00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:16,043
And the countryside there
it's like Heathcliff's, so to speak...

731
00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:18,726
she is absolutely wild.

732
00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:21,201
What we wanted to do was -
we wanted to leave -

733
00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:23,647
We wanted to start from All Hallows' Eve, Halloween...

734
00:42:23,720 --> 00:42:26,041
and use it as a starting point for something else.

735
00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:29,647
So each of us prepared 
some kind of event for others...

736
00:42:29,720 --> 00:42:32,530
that it was somehow
in the spirit of All Hallows' Eve.

737
00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:35,524
But the biggest thing
was that three of our...

738
00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:38,001
they disappeared
in the middle of the night, every night...

739
00:42:38,080 --> 00:42:40,481
and we knew they were 
preparing something big...

740
00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:42,562
but we didn't know what.

741
00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:46,850
At midnight on Halloween
under a dark moon, on those hills...

742
00:42:46,960 --> 00:42:50,726
we told each other to meet on the hill
higher and that we would be taken somewhere.

743
00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:55,169
And so we did.
We waited, it was very cold.

744
00:42:55,240 --> 00:42:58,961
And then three of them - Helen, Bill
and Fred - appeared dressed in white.

745
00:42:59,040 --> 00:43:03,090
What they had made from sheets
it was quite disturbing and not funny at all.

746
00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:07,888
And they took us to the basement of this one
house that had been burned down by the owners.

747
00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:12,085
And in this ruined basement, they had set up a table
with benches they had built.

748
00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:17,326
And on this table they had placed
paper, pens, wine and glasses.

749
00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:22,691
They asked us to sit at the table
and to write our last will and testament.

750
00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:26,321
You know, thinking and writing
what were our last words to the world...

751
00:43:26,400 --> 00:43:28,687
or for someone who is very close to us.

752
00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:31,445
A very complicated task.

753
00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:35,047
I must have stayed there
for an hour and a half, maybe two.

754
00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:38,522
And then, one by one, they asked us
to go with them...

755
00:43:38,600 --> 00:43:40,602
and I was last in order.

756
00:43:40,720 --> 00:43:43,121
They came to me,
they put a blindfold over my eyes...

757
00:43:43,200 --> 00:43:45,407
and they led me through the fields-
two people.

758
00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:49,644
And we found some sort of open warehouse
with a shed, in the fields...

759
00:43:49,720 --> 00:43:53,202
a small building
which was once used for tools.

760
00:43:53,280 --> 00:43:56,363
And they took me down the stairs
in the basement...

761
00:43:56,440 --> 00:44:01,321
and the room was full
of a blinding white light.

762
00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:04,927
They told me to undress
and to give him all my valuables.

763
00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:07,446
Then they put me on the table
and they cleaned me with a sponge.

764
00:44:07,520 --> 00:44:12,048
So, start imagining me
i-i-the concentration camps and the secret police.

765
00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:15,960
I don't know what happened to the other people
but I started crying uncontrollably.

766
00:44:16,040 --> 00:44:20,568
And then, then they put me on my feet 
and they took pictures of me, naked.

767
00:44:20,640 --> 00:44:23,450
And then naked, still blindfolded,
I was led through the forests...

768
00:44:23,560 --> 00:44:26,803
and we came to a kind of tent made of sheets,
with sheets spread on the ground.

769
00:44:26,880 --> 00:44:28,928
And there were all these naked bodies...

770
00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:32,527
piled up together
to warm up against the cold.

771
00:44:32,600 --> 00:44:34,762
They left us there for about an hour.

772
00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:37,969
And then again, in turn,
one by one, we were led out.

773
00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:40,042
I was wearing the blindfold...

774
00:44:40,120 --> 00:44:43,806
and I felt myself being stretched out
on something, like a stretcher.

775
00:44:43,880 --> 00:44:48,807
And the stretcher was carried a long way
slowly, through the forests...

776
00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:54,683
and then I felt that I was being supported 
to the ground.

777
00:44:54,760 --> 00:44:58,481
They, in fact, had dug six tombs...

778
00:44:58,560 --> 00:45:01,245
two and a half meters deep.

779
00:45:01,320 --> 00:45:05,689
Then, I heard these pieces of wood
who leaned on me.

780
00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:09,128
I can't tell you, Wally,
what I was going through at the time.

781
00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:12,568
And while the stretcher came
lowered into the grave...

782
00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:14,642
and this wood 
he was on top of me...

783
00:45:14,720 --> 00:45:17,200
they put my valuables in my hands.

784
00:45:17,280 --> 00:45:20,090
And they had brought, 
a kind of sheet or cloth...

785
00:45:20,160 --> 00:45:22,686
and they had held him like this
on my head...

786
00:45:22,760 --> 00:45:25,570
and then they shoveled the earth
inside the tomb...

787
00:45:26,880 --> 00:45:31,522
so I really had the feeling of
be buried alive.

788
00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:36,490
Then, after being in the grave
for about an hour -

789
00:45:36,560 --> 00:45:39,848
I mean, I don't know for how long
there really was time -

790
00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:42,491
I was resurrected,
taken out of the grave...

791
00:45:42,560 --> 00:45:44,961
remove the bandages,
and led back out into the fields.

792
00:45:45,040 --> 00:45:49,489
And we came to a big fire
with music and hot wine...

793
00:45:49,600 --> 00:45:51,682
and we all danced until dawn.

794
00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:55,082
Then, at dawn...

795
00:45:55,160 --> 00:45:58,164
at the end of my strength,
we filled the graves...

796
00:45:58,240 --> 00:46:00,925
and we returned to New York.

797
00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:07,721
And that was the last big event.
I mean that was the end.

798
00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:09,802
That is, I began to realize that...

799
00:46:09,880 --> 00:46:12,565
I just didn't want to do these things anymore,
not anymore. You understand?

800
00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:17,123
I felt in a sort of calm state,
like in that chapter of Moby Dick...

801
00:46:17,200 --> 00:46:20,329
in which the wind ceases on the sails.

802
00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:23,165
And then last winter, without that
I was thinking about it more...

803
00:46:23,240 --> 00:46:27,529
I met this agent to tell him
that I was interested in being a theater director again.

804
00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:30,046
In reality,
he looked quite surprised...

805
00:46:30,120 --> 00:46:33,647
to see that Rip van Winkle
he was still alive.

806
00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:41,203
Mmm.

807
00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:43,328
<i>God.</i>

808
00:46:43,400 --> 00:46:45,289
I didn't know they were that small.

809
00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:50,282
<i>Well, you know, frankly...</i>

810
00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:53,204
I'm pretty disgusted by the whole thing,
to be honest.

811
00:46:53,280 --> 00:46:55,681
- Meaning what?
- Ah, you know -

812
00:46:55,760 --> 00:46:57,728
Who did I think I was, really?

813
00:46:57,800 --> 00:47:02,488
I mean, this is the story of a species
of princess and the pea.

814
00:47:02,560 --> 00:47:04,881
Who I thought I was,
the Shah of Iran?

815
00:47:04,960 --> 00:47:09,761
You know, I wonder if people like me
I'm not really like Albert Speer, Wally.

816
00:47:09,840 --> 00:47:14,004
- Do you know Hitler's architect, Albert Speer?
- Who?

817
00:47:14,120 --> 00:47:17,761
No, because I've been thinking about him a lot lately
because, well, I think I'm Speer.

818
00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:20,923
And I think it was time I was stopped
while I was trying to live the kind of life he led.

819
00:47:21,000 --> 00:47:22,604
But what are you talking about?

820
00:47:22,720 --> 00:47:26,611
Well, you know, he was a very cultured man,
an architect, an artist... 

821
00:47:26,680 --> 00:47:30,048
and so he thought the rules of ordinary life
were not applicable to him.

822
00:47:32,720 --> 00:47:36,566
I mean, I really feel
that everything I did...

823
00:47:36,640 --> 00:47:39,211
It's terrible, really terrible.

824
00:47:39,280 --> 00:47:42,250
My God, but why?

825
00:47:42,320 --> 00:47:46,928
See - See - I have seen so much death
in recent years, Wally...

826
00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:49,287
and there's only one thing
which is certain of death -

827
00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:51,840
You live it alone, you understand.
This seems pretty obvious to me.

828
00:47:51,920 --> 00:47:55,083
This is what I saw.
Those people around the bed mean nothing.

829
00:47:55,160 --> 00:47:58,130
Your tests mean nothing.
However you deal with it, you are alone.

830
00:47:58,240 --> 00:48:02,290
And so the crucial question is: when will I be 
On my deathbed, what kind of person will I be?

831
00:48:02,400 --> 00:48:05,244
And I'm very skeptical about the person
who lived his life...

832
00:48:05,360 --> 00:48:07,283
the way I did it in those years.

833
00:48:07,360 --> 00:48:09,966
Why would you feel that way?

834
00:48:10,040 --> 00:48:14,523 
You see, I had a very difficult time
in the last few months, Wally.

835
00:48:14,600 --> 00:48:18,525
Three people from my family
they were in hospital at the same time.

836
00:48:18,600 --> 00:48:20,523
Then, my mother died.

837
00:48:20,640 --> 00:48:23,644
Then Marina had a back problem,
and we were deeply distressed for her.

838
00:48:23,720 --> 00:48:26,929
You know, I - I, 
I feel really unprepared right now.

839
00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:30,163
I mean, I - I can't sleep,
my nerves are destroyed.

840
00:48:30,240 --> 00:48:32,208
I'm distressed by everything.

841
00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:36,410
For example, last week, I invited
this Norwegian director for dinner...

842
00:48:36,480 --> 00:48:38,721
and he is a very nice person
that I've known for years...

843
00:48:38,800 --> 00:48:41,087
and it's someone whose 
I trust it almost blindly.

844
00:48:41,160 --> 00:48:44,323
And I was sitting there thinking 
only at how pompous, distrustful he was...

845
00:48:44,440 --> 00:48:46,841
a narrow-minded conservative
who was only interested in theatre.

846
00:48:46,920 --> 00:48:50,402
And there he was talking and talking.
His mother had been a famous Norwegian playwright.

847
00:48:50,520 --> 00:48:54,844
And I realize he had said at least 400 times in the entire evening
"I remember my mother..."

848
00:48:54,920 --> 00:48:58,129
<i>And he kept telling story after story
of this mother.</i>

849
00:48:58,200 --> 00:49:01,090
You know, I had heard these stories
at least 20 times in the past.

850
00:49:01,160 --> 00:49:03,845
And he was silently draining himself
the whole bottle of bourbon.

851
00:49:03,960 --> 00:49:06,042
His laugh was truly horrible.

852
00:49:06,120 --> 00:49:09,727
You know, I could hear his laugh -
the pain in that laughter, the falseness.

853
00:49:09,840 --> 00:49:12,241
You know, I understood what it meant to him
to have been the son of that woman.

854
00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:16,041
So, at a certain point, 
I politely asked him to leave.

855
00:49:16,120 --> 00:49:19,602
I told him I should wake up early
the next morning, because at that time it was really horrible.

856
00:49:19,680 --> 00:49:22,081
It was as if he had died there
in my living room.

857
00:49:22,160 --> 00:49:26,245
Then I went to the bathroom to cry, 
because I felt I had lost a friend.

858
00:49:26,320 --> 00:49:28,527
And then, after he was gone,
I turned on the TV...

859
00:49:28,600 --> 00:49:30,967
and there was this guy who had
just won the tournament of something.

860
00:49:31,080 --> 00:49:34,562
Some kind of sporting event - some kind of big check
and a huge silver bottle.

861
00:49:34,640 --> 00:49:37,120
And he, you see, couldn't putt
the check in the bottle...

862
00:49:37,160 --> 00:49:40,369
and then he put the bottle in front of his nose
pretending it was his face.

863
00:49:40,440 --> 00:49:42,681
He wasn't really listening
the journalist who was interviewing him...

864
00:49:42,800 --> 00:49:46,320
but he smiled reluctantly at his friends.
Then I looked at that boy and thought...

865
00:49:46,360 --> 00:49:50,410
"How horrible, vain,
manipulative, rat"

866
00:49:50,480 --> 00:49:54,405
And then I thought, “That guy is me.”

867
00:49:54,480 --> 00:49:57,689
Then last night, it was ours
twentieth wedding anniversary...

868
00:49:57,760 --> 00:49:59,967
and I took Chiquita to look
this show about Billie Holiday.

869
00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:03,601
I saw these showmen who
they knew absolutely nothing about Billie Holiday, nothing.

870
00:50:03,680 --> 00:50:07,287
You see, those were a certain type
of a slimy, repellent intellectual.

871
00:50:07,440 --> 00:50:11,240
And I immediately had this feeling. I was sitting there,
crying through most of the show.

872
00:50:11,360 --> 00:50:14,170
And I had this feeling of
be as slimy as them...

873
00:50:14,280 --> 00:50:16,248
and that my whole life
it was an act...

874
00:50:16,320 --> 00:50:19,164
and I didn't have the balls 
to really be like Billie Holiday.

875
00:50:19,240 --> 00:50:23,131
I mean, I really feel
of having consumed myself, eliminated myself.

876
00:50:23,200 --> 00:50:25,885
I think I've wasted my whole life.

877
00:50:29,360 --> 00:50:33,285
<i>André, but how can you say
something like that?</i>

878
00:50:33,360 --> 00:50:35,328
Listen -

879
00:50:42,960 --> 00:50:48,649
Well, you know, now I could be
In an unstable emotional state, Wally...

880
00:50:48,720 --> 00:50:51,803
but since I came home, I find
the world we are living in...

881
00:50:51,880 --> 00:50:54,326
more and more upside down.

882
00:50:54,400 --> 00:50:57,324
For example, last week I went
at the Theater one afternoon.

883
00:50:57,400 --> 00:50:59,607
And when I entered
I said hello one by one...

884
00:50:59,720 --> 00:51:02,610
because I know them all, and all of them
they know me, they are always very friendly.

885
00:51:02,680 --> 00:51:06,526
You know, those seven or eight people
who tell me how great it is?

886
00:51:06,600 --> 00:51:10,161
And then a person - a - a woman
who takes care of the casting, tells me...

887
00:51:10,240 --> 00:51:12,242
“Jesus, you look terrible.
Is something wrong?”

888
00:51:12,320 --> 00:51:15,324
Now, with her - well, we talked.
Of course, I told her things.

889
00:51:15,400 --> 00:51:19,405
And suddenly he bursts into tears
because an 80 year old aunt of his...

890
00:51:19,480 --> 00:51:23,724
to whom she was very close, had gone to hospital
for a cataract, which had been resolved.

891
00:51:23,800 --> 00:51:27,327
But the nurse was so sloppy
who hadn't put bed rails...

892
00:51:27,400 --> 00:51:30,529
the aunt had fallen, and now
she was completely crippled.

893
00:51:30,600 --> 00:51:33,001
So, we talked about hospitals.

894
00:51:33,080 --> 00:51:36,368
And then of this woman,
of who he really was -

895
00:51:36,440 --> 00:51:38,807
Because this had happened to her
very recently.

896
00:51:38,880 --> 00:51:42,362
-She could see me clearly for what I was.
- Uh-huh.

897
00:51:42,440 --> 00:51:44,522
He didn't know anything about it all
what I was going through.

898
00:51:44,600 --> 00:51:47,206
But other people, what they saw
was it just the tan, or my shirt...

899
00:51:47,280 --> 00:51:49,248
or the fact that my shirt 
matched with the tan.

900
00:51:49,320 --> 00:51:51,209
So they said, “Jesus, you look great.”

901
00:51:51,280 --> 00:51:54,602
Now, they live
in a sick dream world.

902
00:51:54,680 --> 00:51:57,968
They are not looking at reality.
This seems very strange to me.

903
00:51:58,040 --> 00:52:01,283
Yes, because they, in some way,
they weren't seeing anything...

904
00:52:01,360 --> 00:52:04,762
except those little things
that they wanted to see.

905
00:52:07,800 --> 00:52:12,362
This is what happened 
shortly before my mother died.

906
00:52:12,480 --> 00:52:14,881
We went to the hospital to visit my mother...

907
00:52:14,960 --> 00:52:17,406
and I went in to say hello...

908
00:52:17,480 --> 00:52:22,008
and I saw this woman who looked bad
like a survivor of Auschwitz or Dachau.

909
00:52:22,080 --> 00:52:25,801
And I was in the lobby
trying to comfort my father...

910
00:52:25,880 --> 00:52:30,010
when a doctor who was a specialist
in the problem that mom had with her arm...

911
00:52:30,080 --> 00:52:32,924
he entered his room
and came out simply beaming.

912
00:52:33,000 --> 00:52:36,721
And he said, "Guys, we don't have a lot of reasons
to feel great?

913
00:52:36,840 --> 00:52:40,401
It's not great 
How's it going?"

914
00:52:40,480 --> 00:52:45,407
Now, all he saw was the arm
The only thing he had seen.

915
00:52:45,480 --> 00:52:49,963
Now, here's another person
which exists only in dreams.

916
00:52:50,040 --> 00:52:52,520
That was a butcher...

917
00:52:52,600 --> 00:52:54,841
who was doing a
family carnage...

918
00:52:54,920 --> 00:52:58,129
because when he left that room 
it killed us psychologically...

919
00:52:58,200 --> 00:53:00,282
taking us into a world of fantasy...

920
00:53:00,360 --> 00:53:03,728
where we were confused and scared...

921
00:53:03,840 --> 00:53:07,162
because in the previous moment
we had seen someone who had died...

922
00:53:07,240 --> 00:53:11,768
and now a specialist was coming
to tell us that that person was in splendid shape.

923
00:53:11,840 --> 00:53:14,571
This thing he was doing 
literally drive my father crazy.

924
00:53:14,680 --> 00:53:17,763
Here is an 82 year old man
emotionally very tried...

925
00:53:17,880 --> 00:53:20,929
and if you go at first
and you see the person who is dying...

926
00:53:21,000 --> 00:53:24,004
and you don't want him to die, and then five minutes later
a doctor comes out...

927
00:53:24,080 --> 00:53:26,082
and tells you he's in great shape -

928
00:53:26,160 --> 00:53:28,811
I think you might go crazy.

929
00:53:28,880 --> 00:53:32,646
- Yes. I understand what you mean.
- Yes, the doctor evidently hadn't seen my mother.

930
00:53:32,720 --> 00:53:35,246
People at the theater
they hadn't looked at me.

931
00:53:35,320 --> 00:53:38,369
I mean, it's like I'm spinning around
in a kind of fog.

932
00:53:38,440 --> 00:53:42,570
I think we're all in a trance.
We walk around like zombies.

933
00:53:42,640 --> 00:53:46,326
I don't even think we're even remotely conscious
of ourselves and our reaction to things.

934
00:53:46,400 --> 00:53:49,244
We walk around all day
like unconscious machines...

935
00:53:49,320 --> 00:53:52,449
and in the meantime there's all this anger,
worry and discomfort...

936
00:53:52,520 --> 00:53:54,648
that grows and grows
inside us.

937
00:53:54,720 --> 00:53:57,041
Real. It simply grows in us...

938
00:53:57,120 --> 00:54:00,442
and then it comes out inappropriately.

939
00:54:01,920 --> 00:54:04,605
I remember when
I was acting in this adaptation...

940
00:54:04,720 --> 00:54:06,688
<i>from "The Master and Margherita"
by Bulgakov.</i>

941
00:54:06,760 --> 00:54:09,161
And I played the role of the cat.

942
00:54:09,240 --> 00:54:11,686
But they had had problems 
in the making of my cat costume...

943
00:54:11,760 --> 00:54:15,401
so it wasn't delivered to me
until the evening of the opening.

944
00:54:15,520 --> 00:54:19,127
In particular the head,
I had never had the opportunity to wear it.

945
00:54:19,200 --> 00:54:22,761
And four of the actors in my company
they came to me...

946
00:54:22,840 --> 00:54:25,446
and they said these things
that I could never have thought...

947
00:54:25,520 --> 00:54:27,522
they were there to destroy me.

948
00:54:27,600 --> 00:54:31,446
You know, one of them said,
“Oh good, that head…

949
00:54:31,520 --> 00:54:34,046
“it will totally change your listening experience
during the performance.

950
00:54:34,120 --> 00:54:37,203
“You could hear everything
but in a completely different way...

951
00:54:37,280 --> 00:54:39,521
“and it could be quite annoying.

952
00:54:39,600 --> 00:54:42,843
“Once, during a performance
where I wore ear muffs...

953
00:54:42,920 --> 00:54:46,561
and I couldn't hear anything
of what they said.”

954
00:54:46,640 --> 00:54:50,361
And then another one said to me, “Oh, you know
when I also wear a hat on stage...

955
00:54:50,440 --> 00:54:52,442
I tend to faint.”

956
00:54:52,520 --> 00:54:55,444
All those hesitations
they were so full of hostility...

957
00:54:55,600 --> 00:54:59,047
because if I had really listened to what those people were telling me
I would have gone out on stage...

958
00:54:59,120 --> 00:55:01,930
and I wouldn't have been able to hear anything
and I should have fainted.

959
00:55:02,000 --> 00:55:03,968
But the hostility was completely inappropriate...

960
00:55:04,040 --> 00:55:06,042
because, in fact,
Those people liked me.

961
00:55:06,120 --> 00:55:09,567
I mean, that hostility was just a feeling
which was based...

962
00:55:09,640 --> 00:55:12,530
about their previous experiences.

963
00:55:12,600 --> 00:55:16,002
Because somehow 
in our social existence...

964
00:55:16,080 --> 00:55:19,323
we are allowed to express
our feelings, uh...

965
00:55:19,400 --> 00:55:21,562
only in a strange and indirect way.

966
00:55:21,640 --> 00:55:24,086
If you express yourself directly,
everyone goes crazy.

967
00:55:24,160 --> 00:55:27,369
Well, you expressed your feelings
about what they told you?

968
00:55:27,440 --> 00:55:31,490
No. Because I didn't even know what I was feeling 
until I mulled it over.

969
00:55:31,560 --> 00:55:34,962
And then, in a situation like that...

970
00:55:35,040 --> 00:55:37,281
Even if I knew what I was feeling...

971
00:55:37,360 --> 00:55:40,091
I would have said something 
if I were really annoyed...

972
00:55:40,160 --> 00:55:44,006
like, uh, “Oh, sure.
Well, it's very fascinating...

973
00:55:44,080 --> 00:55:47,801
and, uh, I'll probably pass out tonight, 
just like you."

974
00:55:47,880 --> 00:55:50,770
I pretty much did the same thing to myself.

975
00:55:50,840 --> 00:55:54,208
We can't be direct,
otherwise we end up saying the strangest things.

976
00:55:54,280 --> 00:55:57,489
I remember one night. 
It was a couple of weeks after my mother died.

977
00:55:57,560 --> 00:55:59,483
And I was in pitiful conditions.

978
00:55:59,560 --> 00:56:01,722
And I had had dinner with three friends
relatively very intimate...

979
00:56:01,800 --> 00:56:03,768
two of whom my mother knew
pretty good...

980
00:56:03,880 --> 00:56:06,451
and all three had known me for many years.

981
00:56:06,520 --> 00:56:09,330
And we went on throughout the evening
without ever being able to...

982
00:56:09,400 --> 00:56:11,368
for a moment,
even just getting closer-

983
00:56:11,440 --> 00:56:13,681
Not that I wanted to
sit down and have a terrible evening...

984
00:56:13,760 --> 00:56:16,650
where I could talk about all the pain
that I was going through and everything.

985
00:56:16,720 --> 00:56:18,370
Actually, not quite.

986
00:56:18,440 --> 00:56:20,647
But the fact was, no one could say...

987
00:56:20,720 --> 00:56:23,564
“Jesus, what a tragedy mom's story”
or “How are you?”

988
00:56:23,680 --> 00:56:27,002
It was as if nothing had happened. Them
they continued to make jokes, laugh and play pranks.

989
00:56:27,080 --> 00:56:29,082
In fact, I started to go crazy.

990
00:56:29,160 --> 00:56:31,731
One of these people spoke of a certain man
which I don't appreciate that much...

991
00:56:31,800 --> 00:56:35,646
then I started screaming about how he had been found
on the river in the Bronx...

992
00:56:35,760 --> 00:56:39,890
and his penis had fallen off due to gonorrhea
and a whole other bunch of crazy stuff.

993
00:56:40,040 --> 00:56:44,682
And only later, when I was home, I realized
how desperate I was to break the ice like that.

994
00:56:44,760 --> 00:56:46,285
Already.

995
00:56:46,360 --> 00:56:50,410
You understand Wally, that if you brought that situation
in a Tibetan house -

996
00:56:50,480 --> 00:56:53,484
It would be so far from them. 
They just wouldn't understand it.

997
00:56:53,560 --> 00:56:56,006
That would just be very strange, Wally.

998
00:56:56,120 --> 00:57:00,011
If four Tibetans come together,
and a tragedy had struck one of them...

999
00:57:00,080 --> 00:57:04,722
and the three spent the entire course of the evening -

1000
00:57:04,800 --> 00:57:07,041
<i>I believe, you know,
the Tibetans would have seen that attitude...</i>

1001
00:57:07,120 --> 00:57:10,169
thinking of it as behavior
more unimaginable.

1002
00:57:10,280 --> 00:57:12,647
-Yes, but for us, it is a very common behavior.
- Mm-hmm.

1003
00:57:12,720 --> 00:57:16,486
I mean, really, the - the Africans probably
they would have pierced the four of us with their spears...

1004
00:57:16,560 --> 00:57:18,528
because that behavior would drive them crazy.

1005
00:57:18,600 --> 00:57:21,126
They would have thought we were
wild animals or something.

1006
00:57:21,240 --> 00:57:25,040
- Rightly so.
- I mean, it's really abnormal behavior.

1007
00:57:25,120 --> 00:57:27,282
Is everything okay, gentlemen?

1008
00:57:27,360 --> 00:57:29,283
- Optimal.
- Really.

1009
00:57:33,440 --> 00:57:35,681
But those are
typical evenings for us.

1010
00:57:35,760 --> 00:57:39,890
I mean, we go to dinners and parties
like those, all the time.

1011
00:57:39,960 --> 00:57:43,043
These evenings are really
like some kind of unhealthy dream...

1012
00:57:43,120 --> 00:57:45,566
where people express themselves through symbols.

1013
00:57:45,680 --> 00:57:49,924
Everyone is sort of floating through
this fog of unconscious symbols and feelings.

1014
00:57:50,000 --> 00:57:52,401
Nobody says what 
he's really thinking.

1015
00:57:52,480 --> 00:57:57,486
Then people start playing these jokes
which really constitute some sort of secret code.

1016
00:57:57,560 --> 00:57:59,961
Real. Well, that often happens
in this kind of event...

1017
00:58:00,080 --> 00:58:04,483
It's just these crazy little fantasies
they start to be staged, you know...

1018
00:58:04,560 --> 00:58:07,689
and each one speaks to the other
and says all sorts of nonsense like...

1019
00:58:07,760 --> 00:58:11,651
“Hey, wouldn't it be great if Frank Sinatra
and Mrs. Nixon and blah-blah-blah...

1020
00:58:11,720 --> 00:58:14,246
were they in such and such a situation?”

1021
00:58:14,320 --> 00:58:17,722
You know, always with famous people
and always with something grotesque.

1022
00:58:17,800 --> 00:58:20,406
And everyone is talking about something horrible...

1023
00:58:20,480 --> 00:58:25,008
like the death of that girl
in the car with Ted Kennedy...

1024
00:58:25,080 --> 00:58:27,560
and everyone there, simply
to roar with pleased laughter.

1025
00:58:27,640 --> 00:58:30,086
I mean, it's really incredible,
and at the same time, unthinkable.

1026
00:58:30,160 --> 00:58:35,291
That's the only way everything is expressed,
through these totally sick jokes.

1027
00:58:35,360 --> 00:58:38,603
I believe this is the reason
so I've never understood what happens during a party.

1028
00:58:38,680 --> 00:58:41,889
I'm always completely confused.

1029
00:58:41,960 --> 00:58:46,727
Debby once said 
after one of these New York evenings...

1030
00:58:46,800 --> 00:58:49,121
who believed he had travelled
a very long distance...

1031
00:58:49,200 --> 00:58:52,682
simply passing through his 
origins in the suburbs of Chicago...

1032
00:58:52,760 --> 00:58:54,762
to that evening in New York...

1033
00:58:54,840 --> 00:58:57,889
just like his grandmother had 
previously travelled...

1034
00:58:57,960 --> 00:59:00,645
from the steppes of Russia
in the suburbs of Chicago. 

1035
00:59:00,720 --> 00:59:03,041
I think that's correct.

1036
00:59:04,160 --> 00:59:06,811
You know, Wally, it's possible
that one of the reasons...

1037
00:59:06,880 --> 00:59:08,803
so we don't know
what's happening...

1038
00:59:08,880 --> 00:59:11,804
is that when we were there at the party,
we were too busy playing a part.

1039
00:59:11,880 --> 00:59:13,166
Uh-huh.

1040
00:59:13,240 --> 00:59:16,687
This was one of the reasons
for which Grotowski gave up the theater.

1041
00:59:16,760 --> 00:59:20,924
He felt that people in their daily lives
they were acting so well...

1042
00:59:21,000 --> 00:59:23,685
than the performance at the theater
if it were something superfluous...

1043
00:59:23,760 --> 00:59:25,683
and in a certain sense, obscene.

1044
00:59:25,760 --> 00:59:28,001
Huh.

1045
00:59:28,080 --> 00:59:30,811
It's not incredible
how often does a doctor...

1046
00:59:30,920 --> 00:59:33,605
meet our expectations
what a doctor should look like?

1047
00:59:33,680 --> 00:59:37,207
When you see a terrorist on television,
he simply appears to us as a terrorist.

1048
00:59:37,280 --> 00:59:39,806
We live in a world 
in which the fathers...

1049
00:59:39,880 --> 00:59:42,087
or singles, or artists...

1050
00:59:42,160 --> 00:59:44,367
they're all trying to bring it to life
to someone else's imagination...

1051
00:59:44,440 --> 00:59:48,490
of how a father, or a single man,
or an artist should show up and behave.

1052
00:59:48,560 --> 00:59:51,325
Everyone acts as if they know exactly
how they should behave...

1053
00:59:51,440 --> 00:59:53,363
at any time...

1054
00:59:53,440 --> 00:59:55,522
and everyone seems completely at ease.

1055
00:59:55,600 --> 00:59:58,080
Obviously, in private people
they are much more confused about themselves.

1056
00:59:58,160 --> 00:59:59,366
Certain.

1057
00:59:59,440 --> 01:00:01,647
They don't really know
what they should do in their lives.

1058
01:00:01,720 --> 01:00:03,881
- They read all those motivational manuals.
- Oh, God!

1059
01:00:03,920 --> 01:00:06,491
I mean, those books are so touching
because they show... 

1060
01:00:06,560 --> 01:00:09,484
how desperately curious we all are 
to know like everyone else...

1061
01:00:09,560 --> 01:00:11,528
they are living their lives...

1062
01:00:11,600 --> 01:00:14,365
despite the fact that, acting
these roles all the time...

1063
01:00:14,440 --> 01:00:17,444
we simply hide the reality 
of ourselves to others.

1064
01:00:17,520 --> 01:00:20,126
We live in such a ridiculous one 
ignorance of the Other.

1065
01:00:20,200 --> 01:00:22,407
Often we don't know
the things we might know...

1066
01:00:22,480 --> 01:00:24,482
even those we suppose
are our closest friends.

1067
01:00:24,560 --> 01:00:26,483
What I mean is...

1068
01:00:26,600 --> 01:00:29,120
imagine you are passing by
a moment of hell.

1069
01:00:29,160 --> 01:00:32,562
Well, you would like to know if yours
friends have already had experiences of this type.

1070
01:00:32,640 --> 01:00:34,642
But we don't dare ask.

1071
01:00:34,720 --> 01:00:37,121
No. That would be like asking
your friend to abandon his role.

1072
01:00:37,200 --> 01:00:40,647
That is, we don't give any value 
to the perception of reality.

1073
01:00:40,720 --> 01:00:44,361
And instead, all this incredible emphasis
what we all wear now...

1074
01:00:44,440 --> 01:00:46,408
about our so-called careers...

1075
01:00:46,480 --> 01:00:51,122
it automatically makes us perceive reality
as a very low priority...

1076
01:00:51,200 --> 01:00:55,888
because if your life is organized 
trying to be successful and have a career...

1077
01:00:55,960 --> 01:01:01,046
Well, it just doesn't matter 
what you feel and what you experience.

1078
01:01:01,120 --> 01:01:04,408
You can simply turn off your mind
for years, in a way.

1079
01:01:04,480 --> 01:01:07,404
You can turn it on
a sort of autopilot.

1080
01:01:07,480 --> 01:01:10,882
Just the way your mother's doctor did
he was on autopilot...

1081
01:01:10,960 --> 01:01:13,167
when he entered
and he saw the arm...

1082
01:01:13,240 --> 01:01:15,720
and he had totally missed
in perceiving anything other than the arm.

1083
01:01:15,800 --> 01:01:19,771
<i>True. Our - our minds are all focused
on these objectives and projects...</i>

1084
01:01:19,840 --> 01:01:21,808
which in themselves are not real.

1085
01:01:21,880 --> 01:01:25,282
No. Objectives and projects are not-

1086
01:01:25,360 --> 01:01:29,729
I mean, they're - they're fantasies.
They are part of an imaginary life.

1087
01:01:29,800 --> 01:01:33,361
I mean, you know, it always seems like 
so ridiculous, somehow...

1088
01:01:33,440 --> 01:01:37,126
that everyone should have
their - their little goal in life.

1089
01:01:37,200 --> 01:01:41,489
It's actually so absurd, in a way,
when you consider that it's not that important whether it's there.

1090
01:01:41,560 --> 01:01:44,040
Right. And since concentration
of people are all about their goals... 

1091
01:01:44,120 --> 01:01:47,124
in their existence
they live every moment out of habit.

1092
01:01:47,200 --> 01:01:50,363
Just like the Norwegians who tell 
always the same stories over and over again.

1093
01:01:50,440 --> 01:01:53,011
- Mm-hmm.
- Life becomes a habit.

1094
01:01:53,080 --> 01:01:55,287
<i>And yet it is today.</i>

1095
01:01:55,360 --> 01:01:57,488
If you think about it, very few things happen now
like that moment...

1096
01:01:57,560 --> 01:02:00,325
where Marlon Brando sent the Indian woman
to accept the Oscar...

1097
01:02:00,400 --> 01:02:02,323
and everything became confusing.

1098
01:02:02,400 --> 01:02:04,846
Things become lately 
rarely confused.

1099
01:02:04,920 --> 01:02:07,969
<i>And if you are living only out of habit</i>

1100
01:02:08,040 --> 01:02:10,850
then, in fact, you are not living.

1101
01:02:10,920 --> 01:02:13,605
I think you know that in Sanskrit
the root of the verb "to be"

1102
01:02:13,680 --> 01:02:16,001
it is the same as the verb “to grow”
or to “grow.”

1103
01:02:16,080 --> 01:02:18,003
Huh.

1104
01:02:21,400 --> 01:02:23,323
<i>- Do you know Roc?
- Hmm?</i>

1105
01:02:23,400 --> 01:02:25,482
<i>Oh, yes.</i>

1106
01:02:25,560 --> 01:02:27,562
Roc was an extraordinary man.

1107
01:02:27,680 --> 01:02:29,967
He was one of the founders of Findhorn...

1108
01:02:30,040 --> 01:02:34,329
and he was one of the greatest- one of the greatest
Scottish mathematicians...

1109
01:02:34,400 --> 01:02:36,926
and it was one of the greatest 
mathematicians of the century.

1110
01:02:37,000 --> 01:02:42,166
And he was proud not to have
no fantasy, no plan of an imaginary life -

1111
01:02:42,240 --> 01:02:44,891
nothing that came close -
no illusions-

1112
01:02:44,960 --> 01:02:49,363
nothing that overlapped 
between him and the perception of mathematics.

1113
01:02:49,480 --> 01:02:53,485
And one day, when he was about 55,
while he was walking in Edinburgh Gardens...

1114
01:02:53,560 --> 01:02:56,404
he saw a faun.

1115
01:02:56,480 --> 01:03:00,087
The faunus was very surprised why 
fauns have always been able to see people...

1116
01:03:00,160 --> 01:03:02,845
but you know
very few people are able to see them.

1117
01:03:02,920 --> 01:03:05,571
You know them,
those little imaginary creatures.

1118
01:03:05,640 --> 01:03:07,563
- It's not a deer.
- Oh.

1119
01:03:07,640 --> 01:03:10,928
- They're called "fauns", aren't they?
- I thought the faun was a small deer.

1120
01:03:11,040 --> 01:03:14,249
Yes, well, there's a deer that's called a "faun"
but these are like those little imaginary creatures

1121
01:03:14,320 --> 01:03:16,891
- Oh! But they are those of Debussy -
- Here. Exact.

1122
01:03:16,960 --> 01:03:20,407
Well, so he began to learn about the faun
and to meet other fauns...

1123
01:03:20,480 --> 01:03:22,767
and a whole series of conversations began...

1124
01:03:22,840 --> 01:03:25,684
and more and more fauns wanted
go out every afternoon to meet him.

1125
01:03:25,760 --> 01:03:27,683
And he talked to these fauns.

1126
01:03:27,800 --> 01:03:31,088
So one day, after a while, when, you know, 
they had really started to get to know him...

1127
01:03:31,200 --> 01:03:33,680
they asked him 
if he wanted to meet Pan...

1128
01:03:33,760 --> 01:03:35,888
because Pan wanted to meet him.

1129
01:03:35,960 --> 01:03:38,042
And of course,
Pan was afraid of scaring him...

1130
01:03:38,120 --> 01:03:40,726
because he knew
of Christian prejudice...

1131
01:03:40,800 --> 01:03:44,407
who paints Pan as a creature of evil,
which in reality it isn't.

1132
01:03:44,480 --> 01:03:47,450
But Roc said he would love to meet Pan,
and so they met...

1133
01:03:47,520 --> 01:03:50,251
And Pan indirectly sent it
in his own way for a journey...

1134
01:03:50,320 --> 01:03:54,689
where he met the other people
who started Findhorn.

1135
01:03:54,760 --> 01:03:57,889
But Roc used to practice 
certain exercises -

1136
01:03:57,960 --> 01:04:01,089
like, uh, for example,
if he was right-handed...

1137
01:04:01,160 --> 01:04:03,481
he did everything all day
with his left hand.

1138
01:04:03,560 --> 01:04:06,325
All day - eating, writing,
everything - open the doors...

1139
01:04:06,400 --> 01:04:09,165
in such a way as to break his habits.

1140
01:04:09,280 --> 01:04:11,851
Because the great danger,
what he felt, for him...

1141
01:04:11,920 --> 01:04:15,242
was to fall into a sort of trance,
out of habit.

1142
01:04:15,320 --> 01:04:19,848
It had a whole series of exercises 
very simple ones that he had invented...

1143
01:04:19,960 --> 01:04:24,124
just to continue
to see, hear, remember.

1144
01:04:24,200 --> 01:04:26,168
Because now you have to learn.

1145
01:04:26,240 --> 01:04:29,244
It wasn't something that was supposed to be necessary,
but today you have to learn something...

1146
01:04:29,320 --> 01:04:31,402
like, for example, if you are very hungry...

1147
01:04:31,480 --> 01:04:34,563
or are you filling your stomach-

1148
01:04:34,680 --> 01:04:36,887
Because what is it that you do,
out of habit?

1149
01:04:36,960 --> 01:04:39,611
Because, you can afford to do it,
this is how you do it...

1150
01:04:39,680 --> 01:04:41,648
whether you're hungry or not.

1151
01:04:41,720 --> 01:04:44,564
If you go to 
Buddhist Meditation Center...

1152
01:04:44,640 --> 01:04:47,086
they make you savor it
every bite of your food...

1153
01:04:47,160 --> 01:04:50,846
so it takes about two hours-
it's a horrible thing - to eat your meal.

1154
01:04:50,920 --> 01:04:54,367
But at least you are aware 
the flavor of your food.

1155
01:04:54,440 --> 01:04:57,683
But if you're simply eating routinely,
then you are not enjoying the food...

1156
01:04:57,760 --> 01:05:00,650
and you are not aware of reality,
of what is happening to you.

1157
01:05:00,720 --> 01:05:02,802
You enter the dream world once again.

1158
01:05:02,880 --> 01:05:06,362
Now, you think maybe
that we live in this dream world...

1159
01:05:06,440 --> 01:05:09,842
because we do so many things every day
which affect us in different ways...

1160
01:05:09,920 --> 01:05:13,322
that in some way
are we simply not aware of it?

1161
01:05:13,400 --> 01:05:17,769
I was thinking, you know,
that last Christmas...

1162
01:05:17,840 --> 01:05:21,003
Debby and I had received
an electric blanket...

1163
01:05:21,080 --> 01:05:25,847
I can tell you it really is
a splendid invention...

1164
01:05:25,920 --> 01:05:30,528
that changes your old lifestyle, and it's awesome.

1165
01:05:30,600 --> 01:05:34,002
But, you see, it's quite different
from not having an electric blanket...

1166
01:05:34,080 --> 01:05:37,004
and sometimes I wonder,
What is this thing doing to me?

1167
01:05:37,120 --> 01:05:40,681
I mean, it's like you hear
that I'm not sleeping the same way as before.

1168
01:05:40,760 --> 01:05:42,683
No, in fact it is not like that.

1169
01:05:42,760 --> 01:05:45,684
I mean, even my dreams
they are quite different...

1170
01:05:45,760 --> 01:05:48,604
And I also feel quite different
when I wake up in the morning.

1171
01:05:49,720 --> 01:05:53,202
I would never put an electric blanket.

1172
01:05:53,280 --> 01:05:58,047
First of all, I would be worried about getting electrocuted.
No, I don't trust technology.

1173
01:05:58,120 --> 01:06:01,761
But to be honest, the main reason, Wally,
is that I think that kind of comfort...

1174
01:06:01,840 --> 01:06:04,969
it simply separates you from reality
directly.

1175
01:06:05,080 --> 01:06:07,811
- Do you mean -
- I mean if you don't have that electric blanket... 

1176
01:06:07,880 --> 01:06:10,611
and your apartment is cold
and you need to put another blanket...

1177
01:06:10,680 --> 01:06:14,127
or go into the closet and put on sweaters and scarves
over the covers you already put on...

1178
01:06:14,240 --> 01:06:16,402
well, then you know it's cold there.

1179
01:06:16,480 --> 01:06:18,721
And this creates the connection between things.

1180
01:06:18,800 --> 01:06:22,361
You have compassion for the
Well, are the people next to you cold?

1181
01:06:22,440 --> 01:06:24,568
There are other people in the world
who are cold?

1182
01:06:24,640 --> 01:06:27,120
What a cold night!
I like the cold.

1183
01:06:27,200 --> 01:06:30,647
My God, I never realized that. I don't want a blanket.
Being cold is fun.

1184
01:06:30,720 --> 01:06:34,088
I can snuggle closer to you more
because it's cold.

1185
01:06:34,160 --> 01:06:36,766
All kinds of things that only you are needed for.

1186
01:06:36,840 --> 01:06:40,208
Turn on that electric blanket
and it's like you take a tranquilizer...

1187
01:06:40,280 --> 01:06:42,760
or it's like being lobotomized
watching television.

1188
01:06:42,840 --> 01:06:44,842
I think you come in
back to dreamland.

1189
01:06:46,520 --> 01:06:49,649
I mean, what does it do to us, Wally,
live in an environment...

1190
01:06:49,720 --> 01:06:53,770
where something so big
like the seasons, the winter, the cold,

1191
01:06:53,840 --> 01:06:55,968
Doesn't it affect us in any way?

1192
01:06:56,040 --> 01:06:58,042
We are still animals, after all.

1193
01:06:58,120 --> 01:07:00,043
What does all this mean?

1194
01:07:00,160 --> 01:07:03,289
I think it means that instead
to live under the sun.

1195
01:07:03,360 --> 01:07:06,045
and the moon and the sky
and the stars...

1196
01:07:06,120 --> 01:07:08,964
we live in a fantasy world
that we created ourselves.

1197
01:07:09,040 --> 01:07:12,362
Yes, but I think I would never want to
give up my electric blanket, André.

1198
01:07:12,440 --> 01:07:15,250
Why New York
it is cold in winter.

1199
01:07:15,320 --> 01:07:18,529
Our apartment is cold,
it's a difficult place.

1200
01:07:18,600 --> 01:07:20,762
I mean, our lives
They're complicated enough as it is.

1201
01:07:20,880 --> 01:07:24,362
I'm not looking for ways to get rid of
few things that cause relief and comfort.

1202
01:07:24,440 --> 01:07:27,284
On the contrary,
I'm looking for more comfort...

1203
01:07:27,360 --> 01:07:29,727
because the world is very abrasive.

1204
01:07:29,800 --> 01:07:32,201
What I mean is that
I'm trying to protect myself...

1205
01:07:32,280 --> 01:07:35,921
because, really, there are these shots
abrasives to avoid wherever you look around.

1206
01:07:36,000 --> 01:07:40,005
But Wally, you don't understand, you don't see
that comfort can be dangerous?

1207
01:07:40,080 --> 01:07:43,323
I mean, you like to have a comfortable life,
and I also like a comfortable life...

1208
01:07:43,400 --> 01:07:46,882
but comfort can lull you
in a dangerous tranquility.

1209
01:07:48,040 --> 01:07:51,010
My mother knew a woman,
Lady Hatfield...

1210
01:07:51,080 --> 01:07:53,208
who was one of the richest women in the world...

1211
01:07:53,280 --> 01:07:56,568
and she died of hunger
because the only thing he wanted to eat was chicken.

1212
01:07:56,640 --> 01:07:59,484
I mean, she just liked chicken, Wally,
and it was the only thing he would eat.

1213
01:07:59,560 --> 01:08:02,643
And at that moment his body was hungry,
but she didn't know...

1214
01:08:02,760 --> 01:08:06,321
because he was so happy to eat his chicken,
and so he finally died.

1215
01:08:06,400 --> 01:08:10,610
See, honestly, I believe
that we are all like Lady Hatfield now.

1216
01:08:10,680 --> 01:08:14,651
Let's have our lovely, comfortable moment
with our electric blankets and our chicken...

1217
01:08:14,720 --> 01:08:18,611
and in the meantime we are starving because
we are so detached from reality...

1218
01:08:18,680 --> 01:08:22,526
that we're not even making a real living,
because we simply don't see the world as it is.

1219
01:08:22,600 --> 01:08:24,523
We don't look at ourselves.

1220
01:08:24,600 --> 01:08:26,728
We do not see the effect that our way of acting
has on people.

1221
01:08:26,800 --> 01:08:29,929
You have read Martin Buber's book
on Hasidism? 

1222
01:08:30,040 --> 01:08:32,247
- No.
- Well, that's one way of looking at life.

1223
01:08:32,320 --> 01:08:35,290
I mean, he talks about belief
of these Hasidic Jews...

1224
01:08:35,360 --> 01:08:37,283
where there are chained spirits
in all things.

1225
01:08:37,360 --> 01:08:40,284
There are spirits chained in you.
There are spirits chained in me.

1226
01:08:40,360 --> 01:08:42,761
There are chained spirits 
at this table.

1227
01:08:42,840 --> 01:08:47,767
And praying is the act of liberating
these spirits that look like embryos... 

1228
01:08:47,840 --> 01:08:49,888
and every action of our lives...

1229
01:08:49,960 --> 01:08:53,043
whatever it is,
do business, or make love...

1230
01:08:53,120 --> 01:08:55,088
or have dinner together,
or whatever -

1231
01:08:55,160 --> 01:08:57,811
each of these actions of ours
it should be a prayer...

1232
01:08:57,880 --> 01:08:59,723
a sacrament in the world.

1233
01:08:59,800 --> 01:09:02,406
Now, do you think you live this way?

1234
01:09:02,480 --> 01:09:04,528
Because you believe
that we are not living this way?

1235
01:09:04,600 --> 01:09:07,604
I believe it's because if we allowed it
ourselves to see what we do every day...

1236
01:09:07,680 --> 01:09:09,682
we would find it far too nauseating.

1237
01:09:09,760 --> 01:09:11,728
The way we treat other people.

1238
01:09:11,800 --> 01:09:15,407
Every day, several times a day,
I walk in my apartment building.

1239
01:09:15,480 --> 01:09:19,007
The doorman calls me Mr. Gregory,
and I call him Jimmy.

1240
01:09:19,080 --> 01:09:22,209
So, what is the difference between this way of doing things

1241
01:09:22,280 --> 01:09:25,090
and the landowner of the South
with his black slaves?

1242
01:09:25,160 --> 01:09:28,209
You know, I believe the act of killing
is committed when...

1243
01:09:28,280 --> 01:09:30,248
I walk in my palace.

1244
01:09:30,320 --> 01:09:34,530
For here is an intelligent, distinguished man-
a man the same age as me -

1245
01:09:34,600 --> 01:09:38,207
and when I call him Jimmy, that's what he becomes 
a child, and I'm an adult...

1246
01:09:38,280 --> 01:09:40,601
because I can buy my way
to be in the building.

1247
01:09:40,680 --> 01:09:43,331
Real. All true.

1248
01:09:43,400 --> 01:09:47,291
I mean, my God,
when I was a Latin teacher...

1249
01:09:47,360 --> 01:09:49,488
People usually treated me-

1250
01:09:49,560 --> 01:09:52,370
Like, you know,
if you go to a party...

1251
01:09:52,440 --> 01:09:55,330
of professionals or writers...

1252
01:09:55,400 --> 01:09:58,961
I mean, I was being treated, uh,
in the best sense in the world...

1253
01:09:59,040 --> 01:10:00,644
uh, like a dog.

1254
01:10:00,720 --> 01:10:02,768
I mean, in other words,
which was not questioned...

1255
01:10:02,880 --> 01:10:06,521
my ability to participate on an equal basis
to a conversation with people.

1256
01:10:06,600 --> 01:10:09,080
I mean, I occasionally
I've had conversations with people...

1257
01:10:09,160 --> 01:10:11,686
but then, uh,
when I was asked what I did...

1258
01:10:11,760 --> 01:10:14,240
which always happened
after about five minutes...

1259
01:10:14,320 --> 01:10:16,448
uh, their faces-

1260
01:10:16,560 --> 01:10:20,360
Even if they were enjoying the conversation, either
or they were flirting with me, or any other attitude -

1261
01:10:20,400 --> 01:10:23,847
their faces changed that expression
just like the shutters when they close.

1262
01:10:23,920 --> 01:10:27,322
You know, like those medieval gates.
They simply walked away.

1263
01:10:27,400 --> 01:10:30,768
I literally lived like a dog.

1264
01:10:30,840 --> 01:10:34,401
And for example, when Debby 
she worked as a secretary, you know...

1265
01:10:34,480 --> 01:10:38,087
if he told people,
they went crazy.

1266
01:10:38,160 --> 01:10:40,481
I mean, it sounded like he said something like...

1267
01:10:40,560 --> 01:10:45,407
“Oh, well, I’ve been serving lately
life sentence for the murder of a child."

1268
01:10:46,560 --> 01:10:50,610
I mean, my God, when you talk 
of your attitudes towards other people...

1269
01:10:51,920 --> 01:10:53,922
I think about myself, too...

1270
01:10:54,000 --> 01:10:58,005
like an honest person,
right, you know...

1271
01:10:58,080 --> 01:11:00,447
just because I believe
to be reasonably friendly...

1272
01:11:00,520 --> 01:11:02,761
for most people
that I come across every day.

1273
01:11:02,840 --> 01:11:05,525
I mean, I really think about it 
I'm quite pleased with myself.

1274
01:11:05,600 --> 01:11:08,729
I just think I am 
quite a nice guy, uh, really...

1275
01:11:08,800 --> 01:11:11,883
if I consider that world which is made up of...

1276
01:11:11,960 --> 01:11:14,770
that little circle of people
who I consider friends...

1277
01:11:14,840 --> 01:11:17,844
or the small group of people who 
I know in the little world of our hobbies -

1278
01:11:17,960 --> 01:11:19,849
the theater and any collateral activity.

1279
01:11:19,960 --> 01:11:23,043
And I'm really quite happy with myself.
I'm quite happy with myself.

1280
01:11:23,120 --> 01:11:25,248
I don't have anything to blame myself for.

1281
01:11:25,320 --> 01:11:27,322
I mean, you know, let's deal with it.

1282
01:11:27,400 --> 01:11:31,200
That is, most of the world out there
that I never really think about.

1283
01:11:31,280 --> 01:11:35,569
I certainly don't take responsibility
for the way I lived in that world.

1284
01:11:35,640 --> 01:11:38,405
I mean, if I had to currently do 
a sort of comparison with the fact that...

1285
01:11:38,520 --> 01:11:40,682
that I'm sharing this stage...

1286
01:11:40,760 --> 01:11:43,240
with-with-with this starving person 
somewhere in Africa...

1287
01:11:43,360 --> 01:11:45,886
Well, I wouldn't feel that comfortable
with myself.

1288
01:11:45,960 --> 01:11:50,682
So obviously I delete all of these
people outside my spectrum of perception.

1289
01:11:50,760 --> 01:11:53,889
So, naturally,
of course, I'm ignoring...

1290
01:11:53,960 --> 01:11:57,328
an entire section of the real world.

1291
01:11:57,400 --> 01:11:59,846
But, frankly, you know...

1292
01:12:00,000 --> 01:12:04,324
when I write a script, in a certain sense,
one of the things I think I'm thinking is that I'm trying to do...

1293
01:12:04,400 --> 01:12:07,609
it's that I'm trying to carry myself
to collide with some fragments of reality...

1294
01:12:07,680 --> 01:12:10,809
and I'm trying to share it
with an audience.

1295
01:12:12,240 --> 01:12:15,164
Obviously, I think
that we all know, uh...

1296
01:12:15,240 --> 01:12:17,766
that the theatre,
Today he is in terrible shape.

1297
01:12:17,880 --> 01:12:22,249
I mean, uh, that in the last few years
the people who really loved the theater...

1298
01:12:22,320 --> 01:12:24,687
they used to pronounce, "The theater is dead."

1299
01:12:24,760 --> 01:12:27,684
And now everyone has redefined
the theater in such a trivial way...

1300
01:12:27,760 --> 01:12:29,728
that I believe, I believe, God...

1301
01:12:29,800 --> 01:12:33,964
I know people who do theatre
and today they go to see things that -

1302
01:12:34,040 --> 01:12:36,441
I mean, that a few years ago
those same people...

1303
01:12:36,520 --> 01:12:39,410
they would have felt really embarrassed
that I have only seen a few of these shows.

1304
01:12:39,480 --> 01:12:42,051
I mean, they would revolt
you know, in horror...

1305
01:12:42,120 --> 01:12:44,327
to the superficiality of these things.

1306
01:12:44,400 --> 01:12:47,006
But now they say,
“Oh, that was pretty good.”

1307
01:12:47,080 --> 01:12:49,082
I find it truly incredible.

1308
01:12:49,160 --> 01:12:52,289
And I really find this attitude
unbearable...

1309
01:12:52,360 --> 01:12:56,160
because I really believe that the theater 
can do something very important.

1310
01:12:56,240 --> 01:13:01,121
I mean, I think theater can help
bring people into contact with reality.

1311
01:13:01,200 --> 01:13:05,888
Now, now, you may not feel it totally.
You may just find it totally absurd.

1312
01:13:07,240 --> 01:13:10,210
Yes, but Wally,
Don't you see the dilemma?

1313
01:13:10,320 --> 01:13:14,325
You're not counting
the period we are living in.

1314
01:13:14,400 --> 01:13:16,562
I mean, obviously that's what it is
what theater should do.

1315
01:13:16,640 --> 01:13:18,608
I have always perceived this.

1316
01:13:18,680 --> 01:13:22,082
You know, when I was a young director,
and directed the Bacchae at Yale...

1317
01:13:22,160 --> 01:13:25,448
my impulse, when Pentheus is killed
from his mother and the Furies...

1318
01:13:25,520 --> 01:13:28,171
and they pull the tree,
and they tie him to the tree,

1319
01:13:28,240 --> 01:13:31,483
and they hurl him into the sky, and he flies
through space and is killed...

1320
01:13:31,560 --> 01:13:34,530
and they cut it to shreds
and I also believe they will cut off his head -

1321
01:13:34,600 --> 01:13:38,286
my impulse was that the thing to do was
go get a real head from the New Haven morgue...

1322
01:13:38,360 --> 01:13:40,328
and pass it through the audience.

1323
01:13:40,400 --> 01:13:43,290
Now, I wanted Agave
had a real head...

1324
01:13:43,360 --> 01:13:45,840
and that this head passed
among the audience...

1325
01:13:45,920 --> 01:13:49,561
so that somehow people could realize
that it was real, you know?

1326
01:13:49,640 --> 01:13:52,120
That the event had really happened.

1327
01:13:52,280 --> 01:13:56,001
Now, the actress who played Agave 
he flatly refused to do so.

1328
01:13:56,080 --> 01:13:58,208
You know, Gordon Craig
he used to tell...

1329
01:13:58,280 --> 01:14:02,490
because there is gold or silver in the churches
or similar - the great cathedrals -

1330
01:14:02,560 --> 01:14:06,121
when actors should wear
gold and silver?

1331
01:14:06,200 --> 01:14:09,921
And I mean, the people who saw Eleonora Duse
in the last years of his life, Wally -

1332
01:14:10,000 --> 01:14:13,368
those people said it was like seeing
pure light on the stage, oh spirit..

1333
01:14:13,440 --> 01:14:15,442
or the essence of something.

1334
01:14:15,520 --> 01:14:18,205
I mean, when you think about Bertolt Brecht-

1335
01:14:18,280 --> 01:14:21,409
had created somehow
a theater where people could observe...

1336
01:14:21,480 --> 01:14:23,721
something that was extremely exciting
and fun...

1337
01:14:23,800 --> 01:14:26,883
but in an exaltation
where you are not overwhelmed.

1338
01:14:26,960 --> 01:14:31,204
He kind of let you
the right distance between the show and yourself...

1339
01:14:31,320 --> 01:14:34,244
which, in fact, is the same necessary for two human beings
to live well together.

1340
01:14:34,320 --> 01:14:38,370
Now, the thing is, whatever 
the theater can do for the public today...

1341
01:14:38,440 --> 01:14:41,808
that's what Brecht tried to do
or what Craig or Duse did.

1342
01:14:41,880 --> 01:14:43,803
But can he do it now?

1343
01:14:43,880 --> 01:14:47,248
Because you see, I believe that
people are so fast asleep...

1344
01:14:47,320 --> 01:14:50,005
which in any case, you know, you are putting on stage for him
those kind of superficial shows...

1345
01:14:50,080 --> 01:14:52,321
who simply help the public
to fall asleep more comfortably...

1346
01:14:52,400 --> 01:14:55,210
It's really hard to know
what to do at the theater today.

1347
01:14:57,280 --> 01:15:01,922
Because you see, I think if you stage
truly, a contemporary show...

1348
01:15:02,000 --> 01:15:03,923
written by an author like you...

1349
01:15:04,000 --> 01:15:06,685
you can only help the public
to cushion the blow differently.

1350
01:15:06,760 --> 01:15:09,331
What do you mean?

1351
01:15:09,440 --> 01:15:11,488
Well, I mean, Wally...

1352
01:15:11,560 --> 01:15:14,928
how do you hit the audience
staging one of these shows...

1353
01:15:15,000 --> 01:15:17,970
where you show people 
how today they are totally isolated...

1354
01:15:18,040 --> 01:15:21,283
and where they cannot reach others
and their lives are desperate?

1355
01:15:21,360 --> 01:15:24,762
How do you hit them by showing them 
a show that shows our world...

1356
01:15:24,840 --> 01:15:29,050
which is filled with nothing else
what sexually shocking events, terror, and violence?

1357
01:15:29,120 --> 01:15:31,407
This can help the sleeping audience
to wake up?

1358
01:15:31,480 --> 01:15:34,609
Well I don't think it works,
because I believe that this...

1359
01:15:34,680 --> 01:15:37,809
image of the world that you are showing him in the show...

1360
01:15:37,880 --> 01:15:40,929
it is exactly the image of the world
that they already have.

1361
01:15:41,000 --> 01:15:43,810
I mean, they know
their lives and relationships...

1362
01:15:43,880 --> 01:15:45,882
they are difficult and painful.

1363
01:15:45,960 --> 01:15:48,122
And if they watch the evening news on television...

1364
01:15:48,200 --> 01:15:51,409
what they see is a chaotic and terrifying universe...

1365
01:15:51,480 --> 01:15:55,530
full of rapes and murders
and hands cut by subway trains...

1366
01:15:55,600 --> 01:15:59,127
and children pushing their parents
out the window.

1367
01:15:59,240 --> 01:16:02,528
So the show tells them their impression
in the world it's right...

1368
01:16:02,600 --> 01:16:04,602
and that there is no escape from that vision.

1369
01:16:04,680 --> 01:16:06,603
There is nothing they can do.

1370
01:16:06,680 --> 01:16:09,650
And they end up feeling
passive and helpless.

1371
01:16:09,720 --> 01:16:12,200
I mean, think- think about something
like that baptism...

1372
01:16:12,280 --> 01:16:14,601
that my group organized for me
in the forest in Poland.

1373
01:16:14,680 --> 01:16:17,684
Well, that was an example of something that really
it has all the elements of theatre.

1374
01:16:17,800 --> 01:16:21,009
It had been carefully prepared.
It was designed for healing.

1375
01:16:21,080 --> 01:16:23,447
It had been done with
with exquisite and magical taste.

1376
01:16:23,520 --> 01:16:25,682
And they had indeed created something...

1377
01:16:25,760 --> 01:16:29,526
which in this case, it was, in a way
for a one-man audience, just for me.

1378
01:16:29,600 --> 01:16:33,525
But they had created something that
it had a ritual, love, surprise...

1379
01:16:33,600 --> 01:16:35,568
a dissolution,
a beginning, a middle and an end...

1380
01:16:35,640 --> 01:16:38,928
and it was a piece of theatre
of incredible beauty.

1381
01:16:39,000 --> 01:16:41,241
And the impact he had on his audience,
that is, about me -

1382
01:16:41,320 --> 01:16:43,641
it was somehow totally positive.

1383
01:16:43,720 --> 01:16:46,246
He hadn't anesthetized me.
He had brought me back to life.

1384
01:16:49,120 --> 01:16:51,361
Yes, but what you mean, you're saying
which is impossible -

1385
01:16:51,440 --> 01:16:55,604
I mean - I mean -
I mean, isn't it rather disconcerting...

1386
01:16:55,680 --> 01:16:59,526 
come to the conclusion that 
there is no longer any way to awaken people...

1387
01:16:59,600 --> 01:17:03,924
except to involve them in some sort
bizarre, uh, baptism in Poland...

1388
01:17:04,000 --> 01:17:06,606
or some kind of strange experience
on the top of Mount Everest?

1389
01:17:06,680 --> 01:17:11,049
I mean, uh, that you know the worst thing is

1390
01:17:11,120 --> 01:17:13,361
that if you really say that
it's-it's necessary...

1391
01:17:13,480 --> 01:17:16,006
to take, er, everyone to Everest...

1392
01:17:16,080 --> 01:17:20,051
it's really hard, because everyone 
they cannot be taken to Everest.

1393
01:17:20,160 --> 01:17:23,440
I mean, there will have been periods in history
where something like this was possible...

1394
01:17:23,480 --> 01:17:26,450
to, er, save the patient 
through drastic measures.

1395
01:17:26,520 --> 01:17:29,201
I mean, there will have been periods
in which to give to people...

1396
01:17:29,240 --> 01:17:31,242
a strong or meaningful experience...

1397
01:17:31,320 --> 01:17:34,290
you really shouldn't have brought them
on Everest.

1398
01:17:34,360 --> 01:17:36,681
But you do it now.
Somehow, it has to be done now.

1399
01:17:36,760 --> 01:17:39,570
You know, there was a time when
for a moment if you had written...

1400
01:17:39,640 --> 01:17:43,087
I don't know,
Sense and Sensibility by Jane Austen.

1401
01:17:43,160 --> 01:17:46,846
And I'm sure the people who read it
they had a pretty powerful experience. I'm sure they had it.

1402
01:17:46,920 --> 01:17:49,605
I mean, okay, now you're saying
that people today wouldn't understand.

1403
01:17:49,680 --> 01:17:53,321
Maybe it's true. But I mean, there isn't 
any form of writing or entertainment -

1404
01:17:53,400 --> 01:17:55,926
I say, it's not legit yet
for writers...

1405
01:17:56,000 --> 01:17:59,243
try to represent reality
so that people watch it?

1406
01:17:59,360 --> 01:18:03,445
I mean, really, tell me, why
we need a trip to Everest...

1407
01:18:03,520 --> 01:18:05,841
to be able to perceive
a moment of reality?

1408
01:18:05,920 --> 01:18:08,764
I'm saying, I'm saying, Mount Everest
Is it more real than New York?

1409
01:18:08,840 --> 01:18:10,888
I mean, isn't New York real?

1410
01:18:10,960 --> 01:18:15,124
I mean, see, I think if you 
I became fully aware...

1411
01:18:15,200 --> 01:18:18,647
than what exists in the tobacconist
next to the restaurant...

1412
01:18:18,720 --> 01:18:20,722
I believe your brain
he would simply reject it.

1413
01:18:20,840 --> 01:18:23,320
I mean there's not much reality
to perceive...

1414
01:18:23,400 --> 01:18:25,402
at the tobacconist,
How much is there on Mount Everest?

1415
01:18:25,480 --> 01:18:27,130
I mean, what do you think?

1416
01:18:27,200 --> 01:18:29,885
I believe that not only is there nothing 
more real than Mount Everest...

1417
01:18:29,960 --> 01:18:32,008
I believe there is nothing different,
in a certain sense.

1418
01:18:32,080 --> 01:18:34,651
Because reality is something uniform, in a certain sense...

1419
01:18:34,720 --> 01:18:36,688
so that if your -
your perceptions are -

1420
01:18:36,760 --> 01:18:39,604
I mean if your mechanism
it's working properly...

1421
01:18:39,680 --> 01:18:42,968
it would become irrelevant to go 
about Mount Everest and all sorts of other nonsense...

1422
01:18:43,040 --> 01:18:45,884
because, I mean - it's like -
what I mean, obviously, on some level, I say...

1423
01:18:45,960 --> 01:18:49,601
which is obviously very different
from a tobacconist on 7th Avenue.

1424
01:18:49,680 --> 01:18:52,889
- But I mean -
- Well, I agree with you, Wally.

1425
01:18:52,960 --> 01:18:55,645
But the problem is that people
they can't see the tobacconist right now.

1426
01:18:55,720 --> 01:18:58,246
I mean, things aren't striking
people the way it used to happen.

1427
01:18:58,320 --> 01:19:00,721
I mean, it could have been no more than 10 years ago, today...

1428
01:19:00,840 --> 01:19:03,571
that people paid ten thousand dollars in cash
to get castrated...

1429
01:19:03,640 --> 01:19:06,325
just to be able to feel something.

1430
01:19:07,920 --> 01:19:11,003
Well, why do you think they would do that?
Really, why?

1431
01:19:11,080 --> 01:19:15,608
I mean, it's because people are lazy,
or because they are bored?

1432
01:19:15,680 --> 01:19:18,809
I mean, we're like bored, spoiled children...

1433
01:19:18,880 --> 01:19:21,406
who soak in a tub all day...

1434
01:19:21,480 --> 01:19:23,801
simply playing with their plastic duck...

1435
01:19:23,880 --> 01:19:27,282
and now they are simply thinking
“Well, what do I do now?”

1436
01:19:28,760 --> 01:19:31,570
Okay. Yes. We are bored.

1437
01:19:31,640 --> 01:19:33,642
We're all bored now.

1438
01:19:33,720 --> 01:19:35,927
But did you ever notice, Wally,
that the process...

1439
01:19:36,040 --> 01:19:38,520
which creates this boredom
that we see in today's world...

1440
01:19:38,600 --> 01:19:43,049
may be self-perpetuating,
unconscious form of brainwashing...

1441
01:19:43,120 --> 01:19:46,363
created by a totalitarian world government
based on money...

1442
01:19:46,440 --> 01:19:49,091
and that all this is much more dangerous
than you think...

1443
01:19:49,160 --> 01:19:52,050
and it's not just a question
of personal survival, Wally...

1444
01:19:52,120 --> 01:19:54,566
that someone who is bored
he's asleep...

1445
01:19:54,640 --> 01:19:57,769
and someone who is asleep
will he never say no?

1446
01:19:57,840 --> 01:20:00,684
You see, I keep meeting these people, 
I mean, um, a few days ago...

1447
01:20:00,760 --> 01:20:02,728
I met this man who I'm a huge admirer of.

1448
01:20:02,800 --> 01:20:05,087
Gustav Björnstrand, a Swedish physicist.

1449
01:20:05,160 --> 01:20:07,731
And he told me 
who no longer watches television...

1450
01:20:07,800 --> 01:20:10,724
he no longer reads newspapers,
nor the magazines.

1451
01:20:10,800 --> 01:20:13,121
He cut her out of her life
all these things...

1452
01:20:13,200 --> 01:20:17,683
because he really feels that we are living
in a sort of Orwellian nightmare...

1453
01:20:17,760 --> 01:20:21,810
and that whatever you can listen to now
help turn you into a robot.

1454
01:20:22,920 --> 01:20:26,561
<i>And when I was in Findhorn, I met
this extraordinary English expert on trees...</i>

1455
01:20:26,640 --> 01:20:28,768
who dedicated his life
to save the trees.

1456
01:20:28,840 --> 01:20:31,241
He had just returned from Washington,
where he worked to save the redwoods.

1457
01:20:31,320 --> 01:20:34,164
He is 84 years old,
and always travels with a backpack...

1458
01:20:34,240 --> 01:20:36,242
because you never know
where it will be the next day.

1459
01:20:36,320 --> 01:20:39,324
And when I met him in Findhorn,
he asked me “Where are you from?”

1460
01:20:39,400 --> 01:20:42,449
I replied “New York.” And he said, “Ah, New York.
Yes, that is a really interesting place.

1461
01:20:42,560 --> 01:20:46,485
You will then know a lot of New Yorkers who continue
babbling about how they want to leave but never do?

1462
01:20:46,560 --> 01:20:49,166
And I said, “Oh, yes.” And he asked me again,
“Why do you think they don't leave?”

1463
01:20:49,320 --> 01:20:53,211
I gave him a series of trivial theories. He replied:
“Oh, I don't think it's for those reasons.”

1464
01:20:53,280 --> 01:20:57,842
He said, “I think New York is the new
model for the new concentration camp...

1465
01:20:57,920 --> 01:21:00,400
“where the camp was built
by his own prisoners...

1466
01:21:00,480 --> 01:21:04,087
“and the prisoners are the guards, and
they are proud of the thing they have built.

1467
01:21:04,160 --> 01:21:06,083
“They built their own prison.

1468
01:21:06,160 --> 01:21:08,162
“And so they exist
in a schizophrenic state...

1469
01:21:08,240 --> 01:21:10,163
“in which there are guards and prisoners
simultaneously.

1470
01:21:10,240 --> 01:21:13,608
“And as a result, they no longer have-
being lobotomized -

1471
01:21:13,720 --> 01:21:16,121
“the ability to leave
the prison they built for themselves...

1472
01:21:16,200 --> 01:21:19,090
or at least to see it as a prison.”

1473
01:21:19,160 --> 01:21:22,369
And then he reached into his pocket,
and took out a seed from a tree...

1474
01:21:22,480 --> 01:21:24,448
and said to me “This is a pine tree.”

1475
01:21:24,520 --> 01:21:28,127
He put it in my hand and said
“Run, before it's too late.”

1476
01:21:29,400 --> 01:21:32,006
<i>You see, to date,
for two or three years now...</i>

1477
01:21:32,120 --> 01:21:36,444
Chiquita and I have this unpleasant
feeling of having to really escape.

1478
01:21:36,520 --> 01:21:39,330
We really feel like the Jews
in Germany in the late 1930s.

1479
01:21:39,400 --> 01:21:41,323
Run away from here.

1480
01:21:41,400 --> 01:21:43,482
Obviously, the problem is
where to go.

1481
01:21:43,560 --> 01:21:48,407
Because it seems pretty obvious that
the whole world is going in the same direction.

1482
01:21:50,400 --> 01:21:53,643
You know, I think it's quite possible
that the 60s...

1483
01:21:53,800 --> 01:21:58,488
represented the last explosion 
of the human being before it became extinct...

1484
01:21:58,600 --> 01:22:01,285
and let this be the beginning 
of the rest of the future, now...

1485
01:22:01,360 --> 01:22:05,490
and that from now on there will only be
all these robots wandering around...

1486
01:22:05,560 --> 01:22:07,847
feeling nothing, thinking nothing.

1487
01:22:07,920 --> 01:22:10,890
And there will be almost no one left
to remind him...

1488
01:22:10,960 --> 01:22:14,282
that there once was a species
called a human being...

1489
01:22:14,360 --> 01:22:16,362
with feelings and thoughts...

1490
01:22:16,440 --> 01:22:19,284
and that History and Memory
today they are canceled...

1491
01:22:19,360 --> 01:22:22,284
and soon no one
he will really remember...

1492
01:22:22,360 --> 01:22:24,601
that life existed on the planet.

1493
01:22:26,240 --> 01:22:30,689
Now, of course, Björnstrand hears
that there is almost no hope...

1494
01:22:30,760 --> 01:22:34,162
and that we probably 
we are regressing to a period...

1495
01:22:34,240 --> 01:22:37,289
wild, immoral, scary.

1496
01:22:37,360 --> 01:22:39,840
The people of Findhorn
he sees it differently.

1497
01:22:39,920 --> 01:22:42,764
They feel they will be there
these flashes of light...

1498
01:22:42,840 --> 01:22:44,922
to pop up 
in different parts of the world...

1499
01:22:45,000 --> 01:22:49,369
and that these will be, in a certain sense,
invisible planets on this planet...

1500
01:22:49,440 --> 01:22:51,920
and that like us, or the world,
we will become cold...

1501
01:22:52,000 --> 01:22:55,641
we will make invisible space journeys
on these different planets...

1502
01:22:55,720 --> 01:22:59,202
to supply us with everything we need
on the planet...

1503
01:22:59,280 --> 01:23:01,567
and go back.

1504
01:23:01,640 --> 01:23:04,564
And they have the feeling 
that there must be centers...

1505
01:23:04,640 --> 01:23:08,964
where people can come today
and rebuild a new future for the world.

1506
01:23:09,040 --> 01:23:11,080
And when I was talking 
with, uh, Gustav Björnstrand...

1507
01:23:11,120 --> 01:23:14,363
he told me that currently these centers
they are developing everywhere today...

1508
01:23:14,440 --> 01:23:17,444
and that what they're trying to do,
which is what Findhorn was trying to do...

1509
01:23:17,520 --> 01:23:19,761
and in a way, what I was trying to do-

1510
01:23:19,840 --> 01:23:22,207
I mean,
You can't give names to these things...

1511
01:23:22,280 --> 01:23:26,524
but, in a sense, these are all attempts
to create a new type of school...

1512
01:23:26,600 --> 01:23:28,807
or a new kind of monastery.

1513
01:23:28,880 --> 01:23:31,406
And Björnstrand speaks 
of the concept of "reserves" -

1514
01:23:31,480 --> 01:23:34,245
islands of safety where history
may it be remembered...

1515
01:23:34,360 --> 01:23:36,931
and the human being 
it can continue to work...

1516
01:23:37,000 --> 01:23:40,686
in the idea of conserving species
through a dark age.

1517
01:23:42,720 --> 01:23:45,121
In other words, we're talking
of a clandestine movement...

1518
01:23:45,200 --> 01:23:47,806
which has already existed in several ways
during the Dark Ages...

1519
01:23:47,880 --> 01:23:50,611
at the mystical orders
of the church.

1520
01:23:50,680 --> 01:23:52,842
And the purpose of this underground movement...

1521
01:23:52,920 --> 01:23:58,131
is to find how to preserve
Light, Life, Culture...

1522
01:23:58,200 --> 01:24:01,647
<i>how to keep things alive.</i>

1523
01:24:01,720 --> 01:24:04,644
You know, I keep thinking 
that what we need...

1524
01:24:04,720 --> 01:24:07,564
it's a new language-

1525
01:24:07,640 --> 01:24:09,802
a language of the heart...

1526
01:24:09,880 --> 01:24:13,805
a language, like in the Polish forest,
where language was not necessary.

1527
01:24:13,880 --> 01:24:18,841
A sort of language between people
that it is a new type of poetry...

1528
01:24:18,920 --> 01:24:23,482
let it be the poetry of dancing bees
that tell us where the honey is.

1529
01:24:23,560 --> 01:24:26,643
And I believe in the idea 
to create that language...

1530
01:24:26,720 --> 01:24:30,281
you will have to learn how
being able to pass through a mirror...

1531
01:24:30,360 --> 01:24:32,328
in another type of perception...

1532
01:24:32,400 --> 01:24:37,327
where you get the feeling
to be in communion with all things...

1533
01:24:37,400 --> 01:24:40,643
and suddenly you understand everything.

1534
01:24:49,760 --> 01:24:52,047
Are you ready for dessert?

1535
01:24:52,120 --> 01:24:54,282
Oh, I think I'll have an espresso.
Thank you.

1536
01:24:54,400 --> 01:24:58,371
- Very good.
- I - I'll take one too. Thank you.

1537
01:24:58,440 --> 01:25:01,728
And - And, oh, I might have
even a amaretto?

1538
01:25:01,800 --> 01:25:04,485
Of course, sir.

1539
01:25:04,560 --> 01:25:06,688
Thank you.

1540
01:25:06,760 --> 01:25:11,049
You see, Wally, there's this incredible building
that they did in Findhorn. 

1541
01:25:11,120 --> 01:25:13,726
And the man who designed it
he had never drawn anything in his entire life.

1542
01:25:13,800 --> 01:25:15,768
He wrote children's books.

1543
01:25:15,880 --> 01:25:19,043
And some people wanted it to be
a sort of meditation room...

1544
01:25:19,120 --> 01:25:21,521
and others wanted it to be
a kind of reading room.

1545
01:25:21,600 --> 01:25:25,730
But the sensitive part of the community wanted it
that it served for another equally important function...

1546
01:25:25,800 --> 01:25:29,407
because they wanted it to be sort of
of a spaceship that could rise at night...

1547
01:25:29,520 --> 01:25:32,285
and let the UFOs know this 
it was a quiet place to land...

1548
01:25:32,360 --> 01:25:34,362
and that they would find friends there.

1549
01:25:34,480 --> 01:25:38,201
So, the problem was-
since a resistant type of roof was needed-

1550
01:25:38,320 --> 01:25:41,403
it was like having a roof
that could stand above the palace...

1551
01:25:41,480 --> 01:25:44,927
but at the same time was capable of flying
at night and encounter flying saucers.

1552
01:25:45,000 --> 01:25:47,765
Thus, the architect
he pondered and pondered...

1553
01:25:47,840 --> 01:25:50,684
and finally he came to the conclusion
that the solution was very simple...

1554
01:25:50,760 --> 01:25:53,081
that is, not having to insert 
the roof on the building...

1555
01:25:53,160 --> 01:25:55,162
which meant it would be detached...

1556
01:25:55,240 --> 01:25:58,403
because they were very twenty
forts in the north of Scotland. 

1557
01:25:58,480 --> 01:26:02,007
So, to prevent it from falling off,
he took some sea stones from the beach-

1558
01:26:02,080 --> 01:26:04,890
or we did it,
because I worked on the construction-

1559
01:26:04,960 --> 01:26:07,042
all above and below the roof,
just like this.

1560
01:26:07,120 --> 01:26:11,409
And the idea was that energy
that would be passed from stone to stone...

1561
01:26:11,520 --> 01:26:13,522
it would have been so strong...

1562
01:26:13,600 --> 01:26:16,922
enough to keep the roof low
in any weather condition...

1563
01:26:17,000 --> 01:26:21,528
but at the same time, if it was necessary that the roof 
went high, there would be enough light.

1564
01:26:21,600 --> 01:26:25,286
Well - figure it works.

1565
01:26:25,360 --> 01:26:27,931
Now, the architects
they don't know why it works...

1566
01:26:28,000 --> 01:26:30,002
and in fact it couldn't work
why should it fall.

1567
01:26:30,120 --> 01:26:32,043
But it works. It really works.

1568
01:26:32,120 --> 01:26:35,806
The winds blow, and the roof should
fall, but in fact, he never falls.

1569
01:26:40,480 --> 01:26:42,403
Really.

1570
01:26:42,480 --> 01:26:44,403
Well, oh...

1571
01:26:45,520 --> 01:26:48,251
you want to know what it is
my current opinion on all this?

1572
01:26:48,320 --> 01:26:50,687
- Do you want to know what my answer is?
- Yes!

1573
01:26:52,400 --> 01:26:54,721
You see, my answer -
I mean -

1574
01:26:54,800 --> 01:26:59,886
I say- I say,
I'm just trying to - survive, understand?

1575
01:26:59,960 --> 01:27:03,123
I say that,
I'm just saying I'm trying to make a living...

1576
01:27:03,200 --> 01:27:05,851
I'm just trying to pay my rent and bills.

1577
01:27:05,920 --> 01:27:08,321
I mean, um -

1578
01:27:08,400 --> 01:27:11,768
that, I live my life.

1579
01:27:11,840 --> 01:27:14,923
I like being at home with Debby.

1580
01:27:15,040 --> 01:27:17,850
I'm reading the autobiography
by Charlton Heston.

1581
01:27:17,960 --> 01:27:19,610
And that's it.

1582
01:27:19,680 --> 01:27:22,604
I mean, you know-
I say that, occasionally, perhaps...

1583
01:27:22,680 --> 01:27:27,163
Debby and I take a walk,
maybe we go to a party or something.

1584
01:27:27,240 --> 01:27:30,687
And if I occasionally get my little one together
talent and I write a script...

1585
01:27:30,760 --> 01:27:33,001
well, that seems to me then
something truly extraordinary.

1586
01:27:33,080 --> 01:27:36,050
And really, I like reading
of shows that other people have written...

1587
01:27:36,120 --> 01:27:39,522
and read reviews of those shows
and what people say about them...

1588
01:27:39,600 --> 01:27:42,809
and what people say
about what people say.

1589
01:27:42,920 --> 01:27:47,369
And I mean, I have - I have a list of errands
and responsibilities that I keep in an agenda.

1590
01:27:47,440 --> 01:27:49,920
I like scrolling through the diary...

1591
01:27:50,000 --> 01:27:52,446
taking on responsibilities,
run errands...

1592
01:27:52,520 --> 01:27:55,683
and cross them off the list.

1593
01:27:55,760 --> 01:28:00,243
And I mean, I really - I really don't know
how someone else can like things...

1594
01:28:00,320 --> 01:28:04,689
that I like, like reading
Charlton Heston's autobiography...

1595
01:28:04,800 --> 01:28:07,610
or, you know, um,
waking up in the morning...

1596
01:28:07,680 --> 01:28:11,207
and have the cold cup of coffee
who has been waiting for me all night...

1597
01:28:11,280 --> 01:28:13,806
still there, for me,
to drink in the morning...

1598
01:28:13,880 --> 01:28:17,282
and no cockroaches or midges
he died in it during the night.

1599
01:28:17,360 --> 01:28:20,045
I mean, I'm really happy
when I get up...

1600
01:28:20,120 --> 01:28:23,647
and I see the coffee there,
just the way I wanted it.

1601
01:28:23,720 --> 01:28:26,007
I mean, I just can't imagine...

1602
01:28:26,080 --> 01:28:28,686
as anyone else can appreciate
anything more than this.

1603
01:28:28,760 --> 01:28:32,606
I say- I say, obviously, if the cockroach
- if there is a dead cockroach inside...

1604
01:28:32,680 --> 01:28:35,490
Well then I just have a feeling
of disappointment, and I'm sad.

1605
01:28:35,560 --> 01:28:38,723
But I mean, I-I
I don't think that...

1606
01:28:38,800 --> 01:28:41,087
I feel the need for this thing
more than any other.

1607
01:28:41,160 --> 01:28:43,766
While, you know,
it sounds like you're saying...

1608
01:28:43,880 --> 01:28:46,804
that, uh...

1609
01:28:46,880 --> 01:28:50,248
that it is inconceivable that anyone could
have a meaningful life today...

1610
01:28:50,320 --> 01:28:52,482
and, that
everyone is completely destroyed...

1611
01:28:52,560 --> 01:28:55,166
and that we all need
to live in these outposts.

1612
01:28:55,240 --> 01:28:57,925
But I mean, you know,
I just can't believe - for you too -

1613
01:28:58,000 --> 01:29:01,322
I mean, don't you find that - that's not pleasant
simply getting up in the morning...

1614
01:29:01,440 --> 01:29:04,887
<i>and let there be Chiquita,
there are children...</i>

1615
01:29:04,960 --> 01:29:07,440
and the Times was delivered to you,
and you can read it.

1616
01:29:07,520 --> 01:29:10,410
I mean, maybe you'll direct a show,
maybe you won't.

1617
01:29:10,480 --> 01:29:13,086
But forget about the shows
that you may or may not direct.

1618
01:29:13,200 --> 01:29:17,762
Why is it so necessary - why don't you sit down
and you only enjoy these details?

1619
01:29:17,840 --> 01:29:22,448
I mean, you're definitely going to have a delicious one
cup of coffee and a piece of coffee cake.

1620
01:29:22,520 --> 01:29:25,205
Why is it so necessary 
have more than this...

1621
01:29:25,280 --> 01:29:27,601
or even think of 
have to have more than this?

1622
01:29:27,680 --> 01:29:31,048
I mean, I really don't know
what are you talking about.

1623
01:29:32,320 --> 01:29:34,971
I mean - I mean,
I know what you're talking about...

1624
01:29:35,040 --> 01:29:37,884
but I don't really know
what are you talking about.

1625
01:29:37,960 --> 01:29:41,169
And I mean, you know, even if I were
I totally agree with you, you know...

1626
01:29:41,240 --> 01:29:44,483
and even if I accepted the idea that
that there is no other way for anyone...

1627
01:29:44,560 --> 01:29:46,642
to have personal happiness today...

1628
01:29:46,720 --> 01:29:49,087
well, you know,
I still couldn't accept the idea...

1629
01:29:49,160 --> 01:29:51,811
that's the way to make life wonderful
was that of, radically...

1630
01:29:51,880 --> 01:29:54,247
you know,
reject Western civilization...

1631
01:29:54,320 --> 01:29:57,642
and return to a sort of religion
in some kind of strange something- 

1632
01:29:57,720 --> 01:30:00,166
I mean, I don't even know
how to start talking about all this...

1633
01:30:00,240 --> 01:30:03,608
but you know, in the Middle Ages...

1634
01:30:03,680 --> 01:30:07,287
before the arrival of the scientific method
as we know it today...

1635
01:30:07,360 --> 01:30:09,647
well, people could believe in anything.

1636
01:30:09,720 --> 01:30:12,371
Anything could have been true-
the statue of the Virgin Mary...

1637
01:30:12,440 --> 01:30:14,522
he could talk or bleed
or be anything.

1638
01:30:14,600 --> 01:30:16,648
But the extraordinary thing 
what happened...

1639
01:30:16,720 --> 01:30:19,690
was that with the development of
science in the Western world...

1640
01:30:19,760 --> 01:30:24,527
some things came slowly
aware and have been understood.

1641
01:30:24,600 --> 01:30:27,171
I say, that...

1642
01:30:27,240 --> 01:30:30,722
obviously, all scientific ideas
they are constantly tested and modified.

1643
01:30:30,800 --> 01:30:32,723
I mean, that's the point of the whole thing.

1644
01:30:32,800 --> 01:30:37,806
We barely know the universe
It has some form and order...

1645
01:30:37,880 --> 01:30:42,408
and that, um, trees don't
they transform into people or divinities...

1646
01:30:42,480 --> 01:30:44,801
and that there are many good reasons
why they don't do it...

1647
01:30:44,880 --> 01:30:47,201
and you can't believe it 
absolutely nothing.

1648
01:30:47,280 --> 01:30:49,203
While, things
what you are talking about-

1649
01:30:49,280 --> 01:30:52,841
I say- I say, you found it
the fingerprint in the book...

1650
01:30:52,920 --> 01:30:56,891
and there were, there were three Andrés
and that of Antoine de Saint-Exupéry.

1651
01:30:56,960 --> 01:30:59,770
And for me it's just a coincidence.

1652
01:30:59,840 --> 01:31:02,810
But - and-and when, you know,
the people who put that book together...

1653
01:31:02,880 --> 01:31:05,121
well, they must have had their reasons
to put it there with the others.

1654
01:31:05,160 --> 01:31:08,403
But for you it was significant, as if that
book was written 40 years ago...

1655
01:31:08,480 --> 01:31:12,485
so that you could see it,
like it was planned for you, in a way.

1656
01:31:12,560 --> 01:31:14,642
I mean, really, -

1657
01:31:14,720 --> 01:31:19,282
Okay, okay, let's say that, if I take
a fortune cookie in a Chinese restaurant...

1658
01:31:19,360 --> 01:31:21,408
I say, obviously,
though I have an inclination to throw it away-

1659
01:31:21,480 --> 01:31:24,290
I mean that, obviously,
I hardly throw it away.

1660
01:31:24,360 --> 01:31:27,364
I mean, I read it.
I read it and, um-

1661
01:31:27,440 --> 01:31:30,683
And immediately instinctively I have a sort
You know, if he says something like, um...

1662
01:31:30,760 --> 01:31:34,401
“A conversation with a black-haired man
it will be very important for you"...

1663
01:31:34,480 --> 01:31:37,529
well, I instinctively think, 
“Who do I know with black hair?

1664
01:31:37,600 --> 01:31:40,410
Did we have a conversation?
What did we talk about?”

1665
01:31:40,480 --> 01:31:44,804
in other words, there is something in me
that makes me read it...

1666
01:31:44,880 --> 01:31:48,566
and instinctively interprets it
as if it were a harbinger of the future.

1667
01:31:48,640 --> 01:31:52,167
But in my conscious opinion, that is
really fundamental to my whole vision of life -

1668
01:31:52,240 --> 01:31:55,449
I say, I really should totally change
so as not to have this opinion.

1669
01:31:55,520 --> 01:31:57,560
In my informed opinion,
this is just something...

1670
01:31:57,600 --> 01:32:01,764
which was written in the biscuit factory
a few years ago and in no way can it refer to me.

1671
01:32:01,840 --> 01:32:04,605
I mean, you know,
the fact that I took it-

1672
01:32:04,680 --> 01:32:07,445
I mean, the man who wrote it
he knew nothing about me.

1673
01:32:07,520 --> 01:32:09,568
I mean, he couldn't really know
nothing about me.

1674
01:32:09,640 --> 01:32:12,291
There's no way the cookie
could really have anything to do with me.

1675
01:32:12,360 --> 01:32:14,966
And the fact that I got it
it's actually just a joke.

1676
01:32:15,040 --> 01:32:17,850
And I mean, if I was about to go
to take a trip on a plane...

1677
01:32:17,920 --> 01:32:19,968
and I get a fortune cookie
that said "Don't leave"...

1678
01:32:20,040 --> 01:32:23,806
I say, of course, I admit that I might feel
a little nervous for a second.

1679
01:32:23,880 --> 01:32:26,360
But, in fact, I would leave anyway
because, I mean...

1680
01:32:26,440 --> 01:32:28,920
that journey will be successful
or failed...

1681
01:32:29,000 --> 01:32:31,651
based on the condition of the aircraft
and the condition of the pilot.

1682
01:32:31,720 --> 01:32:34,485
And the biscuit is not in the position
to know these factors.

1683
01:32:34,560 --> 01:32:36,483
And I mean, it's the same thing...

1684
01:32:36,560 --> 01:32:39,325
with all kinds of, er, prophecies,
or sign, or omen.

1685
01:32:39,400 --> 01:32:43,803
Because if you believe in omens,
then this means that the universe -

1686
01:32:43,880 --> 01:32:46,326
Really, I don't even know
where to begin to describe this thing.

1687
01:32:46,400 --> 01:32:49,847
This means the future
is somehow sending messages...

1688
01:32:49,960 --> 01:32:52,042
back to the present.

1689
01:32:52,120 --> 01:32:55,442
This-this means the future
it should already exist in some sense...

1690
01:32:55,520 --> 01:32:58,444
and is capable of 
send these messages.

1691
01:32:58,560 --> 01:33:02,770
And it also means that things in the universe
they are there for a purpose - to give us messages.

1692
01:33:02,840 --> 01:33:05,241
While I think things
in the universe they are just there.

1693
01:33:05,320 --> 01:33:07,209
I mean, they don't mean anything.

1694
01:33:07,320 --> 01:33:11,848
I mean, if the turtle egg falls
from the tree and gets crushed on the stones...

1695
01:33:11,920 --> 01:33:15,003
it's only because the turtle was clumsy -
it was an accident.

1696
01:33:15,080 --> 01:33:19,165
And- and decide whether to send
my ships to war based on that thing...

1697
01:33:19,280 --> 01:33:21,362
It seems like a big mistake, at least for me.

1698
01:33:21,440 --> 01:33:25,047
Well, based on what information
would you send your ships to war?

1699
01:33:25,160 --> 01:33:26,844
Because if everything is so meaningless...

1700
01:33:26,920 --> 01:33:28,968
what difference is there between you accepting
the fortune cookie...

1701
01:33:29,080 --> 01:33:31,128
and the statistics of
Ford Foundation?

1702
01:33:31,200 --> 01:33:33,202
It doesn't seem to matter.

1703
01:33:33,280 --> 01:33:37,410
Well, the senseless fact of
fortune cookie or turtle egg...

1704
01:33:37,480 --> 01:33:41,280
may possibly have no relevance 
on the subject you are analyzing.

1705
01:33:41,360 --> 01:33:44,603
While a bunch of meaningless facts
which are connected and interpreted...

1706
01:33:44,720 --> 01:33:48,122
in a scientific way
could be of some relevance.

1707
01:33:48,200 --> 01:33:50,921
Because the extraordinary thing
of scientific theories about things...

1708
01:33:50,960 --> 01:33:54,646
is that they are based on experiments
which can be repeated.

1709
01:33:55,680 --> 01:33:57,648
Hmm.

1710
01:34:12,520 --> 01:34:14,648
Well, it's true, Wally.

1711
01:34:14,720 --> 01:34:17,451
I mean it,
listen to omens and whatnot...

1712
01:34:17,520 --> 01:34:20,285
it's probably just one way
to leave us free...

1713
01:34:20,360 --> 01:34:24,729
so that we don't have to take our own
individual responsibility for our actions.

1714
01:34:24,800 --> 01:34:27,087
But I mean, handing yourself over to the unconscious...

1715
01:34:27,160 --> 01:34:32,530
can leave you vulnerable to all sorts
of frightening manipulation.

1716
01:34:32,600 --> 01:34:35,922
And in all the jobs I've been involved in,
there was always that danger.

1717
01:34:36,000 --> 01:34:39,607
And there was always that question
to manipulate people's lives...

1718
01:34:39,680 --> 01:34:43,321
because if I lead one of these working groups,
then I become part doctor...

1719
01:34:43,400 --> 01:34:45,528
and part therapist,
and partly a priest.

1720
01:34:45,600 --> 01:34:50,003
And I'm not a doctor,
nor a therapist, nor a priest.

1721
01:34:50,120 --> 01:34:52,691
And already some of
these new monasteries...

1722
01:34:52,760 --> 01:34:55,366
or community or whatever
what we were talking about...

1723
01:34:55,440 --> 01:34:57,488
they are becoming institutional...

1724
01:34:57,560 --> 01:35:00,769
and I also imagine in a certain sense, sometimes,
they are becoming fascist.

1725
01:35:00,880 --> 01:35:04,965
You know, there's a kind of self-satisfaction
and elitist paranoia growing-

1726
01:35:05,040 --> 01:35:08,089
a feeling of “them” and “us” -
which is truly destabilizing.

1727
01:35:08,160 --> 01:35:12,370
But I mean, um, the thing is, Wally, I think
be the exaggerated cult of science...

1728
01:35:12,440 --> 01:35:14,442
which brought us to this situation.

1729
01:35:14,560 --> 01:35:17,131
I mean, science is carried in triumph
by all of us like a magical force...

1730
01:35:17,200 --> 01:35:19,202
that somehow can solve everything.

1731
01:35:19,280 --> 01:35:21,521
Well, rather it's the opposite.
What it does is the opposite.

1732
01:35:21,600 --> 01:35:23,602
He destroyed everything.

1733
01:35:23,680 --> 01:35:25,648
For this reason, ha ha ha
brought, I believe...

1734
01:35:25,720 --> 01:35:29,725
to this deep, strong reaction
against the science we are witnessing...

1735
01:35:29,800 --> 01:35:32,531
just like the Nazi demons who 
they were released in the 1930s in Germany...

1736
01:35:32,600 --> 01:35:36,446
they were probably a reaction 
to a certain type of knowledge...

1737
01:35:36,520 --> 01:35:39,000
and to a culture and rational thought.

1738
01:35:39,080 --> 01:35:42,607
So I agree that we're talking
of something potentially very dangerous.

1739
01:35:42,680 --> 01:35:45,968
But modern science was not 
particularly less dangerous.

1740
01:35:46,040 --> 01:35:48,008
Right. Well, I agree with you.

1741
01:35:48,080 --> 01:35:50,082
I completely agree.

1742
01:35:51,920 --> 01:35:54,366
No, because you know, the truth is...

1743
01:35:54,440 --> 01:35:58,650
I think I know what really bothers me
about the work you described to me...

1744
01:35:58,720 --> 01:36:01,690
and I don't even know if I can express it.

1745
01:36:01,800 --> 01:36:05,691
But somehow it seems to me that the whole point 
of the work you did in those seminars...

1746
01:36:05,760 --> 01:36:09,685
when you get to the point
and you asked me what they were really about-

1747
01:36:09,760 --> 01:36:11,728
The point of the whole thing, really, I think...

1748
01:36:11,800 --> 01:36:14,963
was to allow the participants of those seminars,
including yourself...

1749
01:36:15,080 --> 01:36:19,449
to remove somehow
every bit of will...

1750
01:36:19,520 --> 01:36:22,091
from some selected moments.

1751
01:36:22,160 --> 01:36:25,403
And the point of it was, if you could,
then everyone would be able to experiment...

1752
01:36:25,480 --> 01:36:28,643
somehow the pure essence.

1753
01:36:28,800 --> 01:36:32,725
In other words, you were trying to find out
what it would be like to experience certain moments...

1754
01:36:32,800 --> 01:36:35,883
without having any kind of worries
of things you should have done in the meantime.

1755
01:36:35,960 --> 01:36:38,327
And I believe
that I'm simply objecting to this.

1756
01:36:38,400 --> 01:36:41,563
I mean, I don't think I accept
the idea that there should be moments...

1757
01:36:41,640 --> 01:36:43,802
where you're not looking 
to do something.

1758
01:36:43,880 --> 01:36:47,885
<i>I think it's in our nature,
to do things.</i>

1759
01:36:47,960 --> 01:36:49,883
I believe we should do things.

1760
01:36:49,960 --> 01:36:52,088
I believe that the will...

1761
01:36:52,200 --> 01:36:56,569
it is a non-eradicable part
at the basis of our human structure.

1762
01:36:56,640 --> 01:36:59,450
And say that we should be 
capable of living without it...

1763
01:36:59,520 --> 01:37:03,525
it's like saying what a tree should be
capable of living without branches or roots.

1764
01:37:03,600 --> 01:37:06,331
But the thing is, without branches or
roots, it would not be a tree.

1765
01:37:06,400 --> 01:37:09,244
I mean, it would just be a stump.
Do you understand what I mean?

1766
01:37:09,320 --> 01:37:11,004
Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

1767
01:37:11,080 --> 01:37:14,448
I mean, if I'm sitting 
at home and I have nothing to do...

1768
01:37:14,520 --> 01:37:16,443
Well, of course I'm looking for a book to read.

1769
01:37:16,520 --> 01:37:20,241
I mean, what would be so
amazing at sitting around doing nothing?

1770
01:37:20,320 --> 01:37:22,243
It just seems absurd to me.

1771
01:37:22,320 --> 01:37:23,970
What if Debby was there with you?

1772
01:37:25,160 --> 01:37:27,083
Well, he would do the same thing.

1773
01:37:27,160 --> 01:37:30,084
I mean, if it was there
really something like, um...

1774
01:37:30,160 --> 01:37:34,085
two people doing nothing
but just simply, being together?

1775
01:37:34,200 --> 01:37:36,202
I mean, if they were just there...

1776
01:37:36,280 --> 01:37:39,363
to “relate,”
to use a word we use all the time?

1777
01:37:39,440 --> 01:37:41,363
I mean, what would that mean?

1778
01:37:41,440 --> 01:37:43,442
I mean, even if we were
to start a conversation...

1779
01:37:43,520 --> 01:37:45,648
or if we were about to go out
to throw away the rubbish...

1780
01:37:45,720 --> 01:37:49,327
or if we were going to do something,
separately or together.

1781
01:37:49,400 --> 01:37:51,323
I mean, do you know what I'm saying?

1782
01:37:51,400 --> 01:37:55,291
I mean, what does that mean
just sit there?

1783
01:37:55,360 --> 01:37:57,681
It makes you nervous.

1784
01:37:57,800 --> 01:38:02,203
Well, well, why shouldn't it make me nervous?
It just seems so ridiculous to me.

1785
01:38:02,280 --> 01:38:04,282
Very interesting, Wally.

1786
01:38:05,440 --> 01:38:09,206
You know, when I went to Ladakh, Tibet
Western and I stayed on a farm for a month...

1787
01:38:09,360 --> 01:38:13,251
well, there, when people came 
in the evening for tea, no one said anything.

1788
01:38:13,320 --> 01:38:15,448
Unless there was something to say,
but it was almost never there.

1789
01:38:15,520 --> 01:38:19,081
So they sit and drink their tea,
and it doesn't seem to bother them.

1790
01:38:20,400 --> 01:38:24,803
I mean, the problem, Wally, of
always being active and doing things, it's...

1791
01:38:24,880 --> 01:38:28,043
- and I think it's quite certain -
that you can do all sorts of these things...

1792
01:38:28,120 --> 01:38:31,522
and at the same time
to be completely dead inside.

1793
01:38:31,600 --> 01:38:34,046
I mean, you're doing all these things,
but you're doing them...

1794
01:38:34,120 --> 01:38:36,248
because you really feel an impulse to do them...

1795
01:38:36,320 --> 01:38:39,085
or are you doing them mechanically,
as we were saying before?

1796
01:38:39,160 --> 01:38:41,811
Because if you really believe
that you are only living mechanically...

1797
01:38:41,880 --> 01:38:44,121
then you have to change your life.

1798
01:38:44,200 --> 01:38:47,204
I mean, when you're young,
you go on dates all the time.

1799
01:38:47,280 --> 01:38:50,204
Go dancing or do something else.
You are free and floating.

1800
01:38:50,320 --> 01:38:53,483
And then one day suddenly
you find yourself in a relationship...

1801
01:38:53,560 --> 01:38:55,688
and suddenly everything stops.

1802
01:38:55,760 --> 01:38:58,570
And this may be true
even in your work.

1803
01:38:58,640 --> 01:39:01,484
And so, obviously,
if you are really alive inside...

1804
01:39:01,560 --> 01:39:03,528
equally obviously there is no problem.

1805
01:39:03,600 --> 01:39:05,841
If you live with someone
in a small room...

1806
01:39:05,960 --> 01:39:08,770
and there is life flowing there
between you and the person you are living with...

1807
01:39:08,880 --> 01:39:13,363
well, then a whole adventure
it can actually happen in that room.

1808
01:39:13,440 --> 01:39:17,047
But there is always danger
that things can go to die.

1809
01:39:17,120 --> 01:39:20,727
Then I guess you have to become some sort
of tramp or something, you know...

1810
01:39:20,800 --> 01:39:22,962
like Kerouac,
and go out into the street.

1811
01:39:23,040 --> 01:39:25,202
I truly believe this.

1812
01:39:25,280 --> 01:39:29,171
You know, it's not that great
spend your life in the middle of the street.

1813
01:39:29,240 --> 01:39:33,802
My prevailing preference
is to stay in that room if you can.

1814
01:39:33,880 --> 01:39:37,089
But you know, if you live with someone for a long time,
people are starting to say in a cash way...

1815
01:39:37,200 --> 01:39:40,841
“Well, obviously, it's not wonderful anymore
as it had once been, but it is a natural fact.

1816
01:39:40,920 --> 01:39:44,402
The first blush of falling in love goes away,
and that's how it should be."

1817
01:39:44,480 --> 01:39:47,643
Now, I completely disagree.

1818
01:39:47,760 --> 01:39:52,448
But I think you have to do it constantly
ask yourself a question, with absolute frankness:

1819
01:39:52,520 --> 01:39:54,648
Is your wedding still a wedding?

1820
01:39:54,720 --> 01:39:56,927
Is there the sacrament there among you?

1821
01:39:57,000 --> 01:39:59,681
Just as you have to ask yourself
if there is the sacrament in your work-

1822
01:39:59,720 --> 01:40:02,087
is it still there?

1823
01:40:02,160 --> 01:40:04,845
Because, it's a really scary thing,
Wally, suddenly having to realize...

1824
01:40:04,920 --> 01:40:09,164
that, my God, I thought I was living my life,
but in truth I was no longer a human being.

1825
01:40:09,240 --> 01:40:11,163
I lived like an actor.

1826
01:40:11,240 --> 01:40:14,481
I wasn't living. I was acting.
I was - I was playing the role of the father.

1827
01:40:14,520 --> 01:40:18,081
I had played the role of the father.
I had played the role of the husband.

1828
01:40:18,160 --> 01:40:21,607
I had played the role of the writer,
or the director, or whatever.

1829
01:40:21,680 --> 01:40:25,571
I had lived in the same room
with these people, but I had never actually seen them.

1830
01:40:25,640 --> 01:40:29,690
I had never listened to them
I had never really been with them.

1831
01:40:29,760 --> 01:40:32,445
Yes, because I know some people
that sometimes...

1832
01:40:32,520 --> 01:40:35,171
they live next to each other.

1833
01:40:35,240 --> 01:40:40,167
I mean, the other person's face
it could transform into the face of a large wolf...

1834
01:40:40,240 --> 01:40:43,084
and it would have no effect.

1835
01:40:43,160 --> 01:40:46,482
It simply wouldn't be noticed.
Nobody would notice her.

1836
01:40:47,800 --> 01:40:49,962
I mean, I was in Israel
some time ago -

1837
01:40:50,040 --> 01:40:52,691
I have this photo of Chiquita that 
was taken when she -

1838
01:40:52,760 --> 01:40:56,401
I always carry it with me. It was taken
when she was 26 or so.

1839
01:40:56,480 --> 01:40:59,324
And it was in the summer,
and she is lying on a terrace...

1840
01:40:59,400 --> 01:41:02,324
in this sort of old-fashioned long skirt
which is worn waist high.

1841
01:41:02,400 --> 01:41:04,880
And she is slim, sensual
and beautiful.

1842
01:41:05,000 --> 01:41:09,369
And I always looked at that image
and thought about how sexy she was.

1843
01:41:09,440 --> 01:41:11,807
And when last year in Israel,
I saw that photo...

1844
01:41:11,880 --> 01:41:16,204
I realized that the face in the photo
it was the saddest face in the world.

1845
01:41:16,280 --> 01:41:19,363
That girl was so lost at that time...

1846
01:41:19,440 --> 01:41:21,408
sad and alone.

1847
01:41:21,520 --> 01:41:25,081
I had carried this photo with me for years,
yet I had never seen her for who she truly was.

1848
01:41:25,160 --> 01:41:28,323
I had never really
looked at that photo.

1849
01:41:30,320 --> 01:41:34,689
And then, at a certain point, I realized that 
I had lived 18 years unable to understand...

1850
01:41:34,760 --> 01:41:36,967
except in the most extreme situations.

1851
01:41:37,040 --> 01:41:40,044
I mean, to some extent, I still had
the ability to live in my work.

1852
01:41:40,120 --> 01:41:42,043
That's why I was so addicted to work.

1853
01:41:42,120 --> 01:41:46,364
For this reason I felt that every show
what I did was a matter of life or death.

1854
01:41:46,440 --> 01:41:48,647
But in my real life, I was dead.

1855
01:41:48,720 --> 01:41:51,326
<i>I was a robot.</i>

1856
01:41:51,400 --> 01:41:54,370
I mean, I didn't indulge myself
not even to get angry or bored.

1857
01:41:54,440 --> 01:41:57,205
I mean, today
Chiquita, Nicolas, Marina -

1858
01:41:57,320 --> 01:42:01,211
All day, like all people, they do things
who annoy me and say things that annoy me.

1859
01:42:01,280 --> 01:42:04,045
And today I got annoyed.
And they were like, “Why are you bothered?”

1860
01:42:04,120 --> 01:42:06,282
And I said, "Because you're annoying,"
you understand.

1861
01:42:07,960 --> 01:42:10,201
And when I allowed myself
to consider the possibility...

1862
01:42:10,280 --> 01:42:12,886
not to pass 
the rest of my life with Chiquita...

1863
01:42:12,960 --> 01:42:16,681
I realized what I always wanted
from life is to always be with her.

1864
01:42:18,080 --> 01:42:21,448
But at that time, I hadn't learned
what did it mean to allow yourself to react...

1865
01:42:21,520 --> 01:42:23,443
to another human being.

1866
01:42:23,520 --> 01:42:25,568
And if you can't react
to another person...

1867
01:42:25,640 --> 01:42:28,803
then there is no possibility
of action or interaction.

1868
01:42:28,880 --> 01:42:33,966
And if there isn't, I really don't know
what does the word "love" mean...

1869
01:42:34,040 --> 01:42:38,841
if not duty, obligation,
sentimentality, fear.

1870
01:42:41,280 --> 01:42:43,851
I mean-

1871
01:42:44,840 --> 01:42:46,888
I don't know about you, Wally, but I -

1872
01:42:46,960 --> 01:42:51,010
I had to put myself into some sort of program 
training to learn how to be a human being.

1873
01:42:51,080 --> 01:42:53,242
I mean, how come I didn't feel anything?
I didn't know it.

1874
01:42:53,360 --> 01:42:57,729
What kinds of things did I like? What kind of
did people really want to date? You understand?

1875
01:42:57,800 --> 01:43:00,201
And the only way I could think of
to find out...

1876
01:43:00,280 --> 01:43:04,285
was to cut through all the noise
and stop acting all the time...

1877
01:43:04,360 --> 01:43:07,682
and simply listen to what was inside me.

1878
01:43:07,760 --> 01:43:10,764
You see, I believe there comes a time
where you need to do so.

1879
01:43:10,840 --> 01:43:13,923
Now, maybe to actually do it,
you have to go to the Sahara...

1880
01:43:14,040 --> 01:43:16,042
and maybe you can do it at home.

1881
01:43:16,120 --> 01:43:18,487
But you have to eliminate the noise.

1882
01:43:22,680 --> 01:43:24,648
Yes. Obviously, personally,
I just, um -

1883
01:43:24,760 --> 01:43:28,446
I don't usually, um,
I don't like quiet moments, you know.

1884
01:43:28,520 --> 01:43:30,170
I really don't like them.

1885
01:43:30,240 --> 01:43:34,962
I mean, I don't know if
be that, um, Freudian thing, like-

1886
01:43:35,040 --> 01:43:37,771
But, you know, fear
of unconscious impulses...

1887
01:43:37,840 --> 01:43:41,003
or my aggression
or something like that, but...

1888
01:43:41,080 --> 01:43:44,801
if things get too quiet, 
and I find myself sitting there...

1889
01:43:44,880 --> 01:43:46,848
you know, 
as we were saying before...

1890
01:43:46,920 --> 01:43:51,562
I mean, let him be alone
or-or with-with someone else...

1891
01:43:51,640 --> 01:43:54,723
I'm like -
I have this feeling of...

1892
01:43:54,800 --> 01:43:58,850
um, my God,
that is about to be revealed.

1893
01:43:58,960 --> 01:44:03,124
In other words, I'm right
to do all sorts of tasks, er...

1894
01:44:03,200 --> 01:44:07,171
but I'm not adequate, um,
to simply be a human being.

1895
01:44:07,240 --> 01:44:09,163
I mean, in other words, I'm not -

1896
01:44:09,240 --> 01:44:12,528
if I were just trapped here
and I wasn't authorized to do certain things...

1897
01:44:12,640 --> 01:44:16,042
but all I can do is,
um, being here...

1898
01:44:16,120 --> 01:44:18,361
well, I will surely fail.

1899
01:44:18,480 --> 01:44:20,482
I mean, in other words, um...

1900
01:44:20,560 --> 01:44:22,961
I can pass all kinds of tests...

1901
01:44:23,040 --> 01:44:26,840
and you know, even if I got an "A"
putting in the effort required...

1902
01:44:26,920 --> 01:44:29,048
but anyway, um -

1903
01:44:29,120 --> 01:44:31,851
I have no clue
how to pass the test.

1904
01:44:31,920 --> 01:44:35,367
I mean - I mean, obviously,
I realized that this is not a test...

1905
01:44:35,440 --> 01:44:38,205
but, um, I see it as a test...

1906
01:44:38,280 --> 01:44:40,328
and I feel like I'm about to fail.

1907
01:44:40,400 --> 01:44:42,368
I mean, it's - it's very scary.

1908
01:44:42,440 --> 01:44:46,684
I feel right in the middle of the sea.
You understand...

1909
01:44:46,800 --> 01:44:49,246
Well, you know,
I could imagine a life, Wally...

1910
01:44:49,320 --> 01:44:54,121
in which every day could become
an incredible, monumental, creative challenge...

1911
01:44:54,200 --> 01:44:56,362
and we would not necessarily be suited to doing it.

1912
01:44:56,440 --> 01:44:59,922
I mean, if you've heard of
leave the person you live with, you should leave him.

1913
01:45:00,000 --> 01:45:02,002
But if I then felt the opposite,
you should come back.

1914
01:45:02,080 --> 01:45:05,766
But in the meantime, the other person
he would have reacted to your abandonment.

1915
01:45:05,840 --> 01:45:09,083
It would be a life made of this sensation.

1916
01:45:09,160 --> 01:45:11,527
I mean, that was extraordinary
in the seminars I led...

1917
01:45:11,600 --> 01:45:15,241
it was like people so quickly
they seemed to lose themselves in enthusiasm... 

1918
01:45:15,320 --> 01:45:19,644
celebration, joy, wonder,
abandonment, tenderness, in a wild state.

1919
01:45:19,720 --> 01:45:21,882
Could we live like this?

1920
01:45:22,000 --> 01:45:25,004
Yes, I think that's the time
of contact with another person.

1921
01:45:25,080 --> 01:45:27,003
I mean, that's what scares us.

1922
01:45:27,080 --> 01:45:30,482
I mean, that moment when
you are face to face with another person.

1923
01:45:30,560 --> 01:45:32,483
I mean, now-

1924
01:45:32,560 --> 01:45:36,849
You wouldn't think it would be so scary.
It's strange that we find it so scary.

1925
01:45:36,920 --> 01:45:38,843
Well, it's not strange.

1926
01:45:38,920 --> 01:45:42,083
I mean, meanwhile, there are some
more than good reasons to be scared.

1927
01:45:42,160 --> 01:45:46,529
I mean, the human being
it is a complex and dangerous creature.

1928
01:45:46,600 --> 01:45:49,285
I mean, really,
what if we started living every moment?

1929
01:45:49,360 --> 01:45:51,283
Christ, it's more than a challenge.

1930
01:45:51,360 --> 01:45:54,967
I mean, if you actually reach out and if
you are in contact with the other person...

1931
01:45:55,040 --> 01:45:58,522
well, that's really something
to fight for, I think it's something I do.

1932
01:45:58,600 --> 01:46:01,251
Yes, it's really pathetic
if one doesn't.

1933
01:46:01,360 --> 01:46:05,763
Obviously, there's a problem, because the closer you get,
I believe, to another human being...

1934
01:46:05,880 --> 01:46:08,963
and more completely mysterious
and elusive-

1935
01:46:09,040 --> 01:46:10,963
become that person.

1936
01:46:11,040 --> 01:46:14,681
You know, you have to reach her,
you have to go back and forth with them...

1937
01:46:14,760 --> 01:46:18,765
and you have to relate, and still you are relating
to a ghost or something.

1938
01:46:18,840 --> 01:46:20,808
I don't know
because we are ghosts.

1939
01:46:20,880 --> 01:46:24,680
Are we ghosts?
Who are we really?

1940
01:46:24,760 --> 01:46:27,650
And this must be faced, confronted with
the fact that you are completely alone.

1941
01:46:27,720 --> 01:46:30,485
And accept that you are alone
it is accepting death.

1942
01:46:30,560 --> 01:46:33,803
You see, because when you're alone,
you are alone with death.

1943
01:46:33,880 --> 01:46:38,124
I mean, nothing obstructs
your view of it, or something like that.

1944
01:46:38,200 --> 01:46:39,964
<i>Correct.</i>

1945
01:46:40,080 --> 01:46:43,004
You know, if I understand correctly,
I think Heidegger said...

1946
01:46:43,080 --> 01:46:47,324
than if you had experience
of your being at maximum capacity...

1947
01:46:47,400 --> 01:46:52,361
you would experience decay,
of being about to die...

1948
01:46:52,440 --> 01:46:54,841
as part of your experience.

1949
01:46:54,920 --> 01:46:58,083
You know, in the sexual act there is
that moment of total forgetfulness...

1950
01:46:58,160 --> 01:46:59,844
which is truly amazing.

1951
01:46:59,920 --> 01:47:02,161
Then in the next moment,
you start to think about all other things:

1952
01:47:02,200 --> 01:47:04,487
work on the script,
what you will do the next day.

1953
01:47:04,560 --> 01:47:08,007
I don't know if this is true for you,
but I think it must be quite common.

1954
01:47:08,080 --> 01:47:10,606
The world comes fast enough.

1955
01:47:10,680 --> 01:47:14,162
Now, this happens because we are afraid
to remain in that state of forgetfulness...

1956
01:47:14,280 --> 01:47:16,362
because that is a moment of proximity to death.

1957
01:47:16,440 --> 01:47:18,807
Like people
who are afraid to go to sleep.

1958
01:47:18,880 --> 01:47:22,771
In other words, you relate to the other, and
you don't know what the next moment will bring.

1959
01:47:22,840 --> 01:47:24,842
And not knowing what it will bring 
next time...

1960
01:47:24,920 --> 01:47:27,048
brings you closer
to the perception of death.

1961
01:47:27,120 --> 01:47:30,761
<i>See, that's why I believe 
that people have extramarital affairs.</i>

1962
01:47:30,880 --> 01:47:33,281
I mean, you know, at the theater,
if you have received good reviews...

1963
01:47:33,360 --> 01:47:35,806
you feel for a moment
that you got your hands on something good.

1964
01:47:35,880 --> 01:47:38,087
Do you know what I mean?
I mean, it's a good feeling.

1965
01:47:38,160 --> 01:47:40,481
But then that feeling goes away pretty soon.

1966
01:47:40,560 --> 01:47:43,882
And once again you don't know
what should you do next.

1967
01:47:43,960 --> 01:47:45,644
What will happen?

1968
01:47:45,720 --> 01:47:48,246
Well, have a fling,
and take it up to a certain point...

1969
01:47:48,320 --> 01:47:51,051
it can really make you feel
down to earth, you know.

1970
01:47:51,120 --> 01:47:54,727
There is a sexual conquest that must be made.
There are several questions to ask yourself.

1971
01:47:54,800 --> 01:47:56,723
Does she like me teasing her ears?

1972
01:47:56,840 --> 01:48:00,367
How intensely you can discuss Schopenhauer
in a luxury French restaurant?

1973
01:48:00,440 --> 01:48:02,807
<i>Any nonsense like that.</i>

1974
01:48:02,880 --> 01:48:06,885
These are all things, I think, that they give you
the appearance that the earth is stable.

1975
01:48:07,000 --> 01:48:10,971
Well, have a relationship
with a person who goes on for years-

1976
01:48:11,040 --> 01:48:13,691
That is completely unpredictable.

1977
01:48:13,760 --> 01:48:17,048
Then you cast off all moorings to the ground,
and you are traveling into the Unknown...

1978
01:48:17,120 --> 01:48:19,566
across uncharted seas.

1979
01:48:19,680 --> 01:48:24,368
I mean, you know, people get hung up on these
images of father, mother, husband, wife...

1980
01:48:24,440 --> 01:48:26,363
for the same reason again -

1981
01:48:26,440 --> 01:48:29,967
because they seem to provide him
the earth under your feet.

1982
01:48:30,040 --> 01:48:32,407
But there is no wife here.

1983
01:48:32,480 --> 01:48:34,528
What does it mean?
A wife.

1984
01:48:34,600 --> 01:48:37,331
A husband. A son.

1985
01:48:37,400 --> 01:48:39,402
A child shakes a hand...

1986
01:48:39,480 --> 01:48:43,121
and then suddenly there's this huge man
that lifts you off the floor...

1987
01:48:43,200 --> 01:48:45,123
and then he went.

1988
01:48:45,200 --> 01:48:47,168
Where is that son?

1989
01:49:06,280 --> 01:49:10,330
<i>All other customers
It seems like they left hours ago.</i>

1990
01:49:10,400 --> 01:49:14,644
<i>We ask for the bill
and André pays for our dinner.</i>

1991
01:49:14,720 --> 01:49:16,210
Really?

1992
01:49:42,480 --> 01:49:44,767
<i>I treated myself to a taxi.</i>

1993
01:49:46,200 --> 01:49:48,726
<i>I returned home through the streets of the city.</i>

1994
01:49:49,920 --> 01:49:52,605
<i>There was no road,
there wasn't a palace...</i>

1995
01:49:52,680 --> 01:49:55,968
<i>that he wasn't tied up
to some memory of my mind.</i>

1996
01:49:57,400 --> 01:50:00,529
<i>There, I was buying a dress
with my father.</i>

1997
01:50:03,120 --> 01:50:06,647
<i>There, I was taking
a milkshake after school.</i>

1998
01:50:10,720 --> 01:50:14,167
<i>When I finally got back
Debby had come home from work...</i>

1999
01:50:14,240 --> 01:50:17,722
<i>and I told her everything
of my dinner with Andrè.</i>